Sonic the Hedgehog #205 Preview/Discussion/Spoilers/Cookies

Forum devoted to Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Universe and the entire Sonic line by Archie Comics.

Postby Ian Flynn » Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:58 pm

I'm not saying Luger didn't have some potential, or that it wouldn't be interesting to investigate him. And to show that he's dead now doesn't mean there isn't opportunity to show him during his life.

But this was not Luger's story. This was Lien-Da's story, and Luger's death was a part of it. This is part one of two and showing the progression of Lien-Da's thoughts, starting with her ruthless past.

Additionally, I am not going to bring back yet another distant relation to clutter up the book. I went to the trouble to thin out the echidna population. I'm not going to use time that could be devoted to someone more important (Knuckles, Julie-Su, Lien-Da, Finitevus) to someone who've virtually a non-entity. That makes no sense.

Yes, I have done more grizzly demises on-screen. I regret that. Tommy's death - while masterfully rendered by the art team - was too much. I got overzealous in my attempts to please the fans with Tommy's fiery demise.

As for MxYL vs. Echidnas - future what-if stories are a much, much easier sell than the epic lineage of Knuckles and his relations. "Sonic's kids" will have far more draw than "Bad female-Knuckles's father." And before you all get all up in arms about the word choice: that is precisely how the majority of the readership identifies the characters.

Could we do an SU arc on Knuckles's relations? Of course we could. We could do multiple arcs. And now that we have SU, I want to delve into it as much as possible. That said, I also have to make sure it appeals to the new and newer readers who only know Knuckles. I have to make sure it keeps things moving rather than circles in on itself.

If I can find a place where I can devote valuable page time to the life and times of Luger, I will. Until then, you at least have an answer as to what happened to him.

Unless you want to be difficult and make it more complicated than it is, but that's entirely up to the individual.
Ian Flynn
BumbleKing
 
Posts: 5837
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:11 pm

Postby kryptyk » Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:39 am

IanPotto wrote:Yes, I have done more grizzly demises on-screen. I regret that. Tommy's death - while masterfully rendered by the art team - was too much. I got overzealous in my attempts to please the fans with Tommy's fiery demise.


I note that you didn't mention how you depicted the Ancient Walkers or Sir Connery or Kage being killed. If Tommy was too much by your standards, how do those rank? Yes I will say these are your standards right now Ian. I say that because scenes like Tommy's death and worse have been present throughout the comic's history.

Some instances that come to mind include Jules being shot in the head, Kodos off screen but audibly murdering the two scouts that started the Great War, Kodos seemingly vaporized by Feist, the sight of Sally supposedly dying from the impact of a fall from a tall building, Uncle Chuck being shot and killed with a gaping hole in his robian chest, Eddy being crushed to death under tons or rock, Knuckles being ripped apart at a molecular level by Enerjak, Monk being gunned-down by Hunter, and a slew of others that I don't have the time or devotion to bother recalling.

With all of these having occurred in the comic already, do you still think Tommy's death really went too far?
kryptyk
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1728
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:23 pm

Postby WinkingSamurai » Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:36 am

Hmm. I seem to have the opposite opinion of the other echidna fans on this board. I thought part one of Birthright was great! It was short, to the point, and it answered a question I had never even thought to ask before, namely "Why was Kragok Grandmaster of the Dark Legion and not Lien-Da?"

I think the biggest reason I'm not as disappointed as the other echidna fans is I didn't build up Luger in my mind before reading this story. I just considered him one of many, many loose ends in echidna history that never got tied up. We knew that Luger mysteriously disappeared, and we knew that Kragok and Lien-Da were responsible. Let's be honest, that doesn't leave a whole lot to the imagination. I thought Ian did a great job of telling a story that didn't really need told by telling it from Lien-Da's perspective, and showing how it affected her standing in the Dark Legion.

My only complaint (and it's really small) is the namedropping of the Zoah. Chronicles elements are canon now? Blarg. Ah well, at least it will give Ian an excuse to showcase the Twilight Cage one day, and with it he'll finally reveal the fate of the Brotherhood, just like Kragok's betrayal of Lien-Da was the vehicle used to reveal Luger's ultimate fate.

Thanks for not forgetting the echidna fans, Ian!

Also, the main story was great. Everything that came out of Robotnik's mouth was pure gold.
User avatar
WinkingSamurai
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1050
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:51 am

Postby Illustrious Q » Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:38 am

I must get this issue! I want to read what Eggman i spouting off now. It sounds too good to be true.
User avatar
Illustrious Q
BumbleCult
 
Posts: 7989
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:33 am
Location: The Land of the Q

Postby SonicGTR » Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:41 am

@ kryptyk
Yeah, unfortunatrly, its not the 1990s anymore. It appears that the general public fears for the children and their innocence (sp?). Just like they don't make cartoons like they used, same applies to the comics.

My personal observation on society today, that's all.

That stated and out of the way, I can't wait for my comic to show up in my mail slot. C'mon mailman!
SonicGTR
BumbleNewbie
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:54 am

Postby Luger » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:49 am

IanPotto wrote:I'm not saying Luger didn't have some potential, or that it wouldn't be interesting to investigate him. And to show that he's dead now doesn't mean there isn't opportunity to show him during his life.

But this was not Luger's story. This was Lien-Da's story, and Luger's death was a part of it. This is part one of two and showing the progression of Lien-Da's thoughts, starting with her ruthless past.

Even with that in mind, that it was Lien-Da's story, I thought Luger's depiction in it was really just bland. I mean, Grandmaster doing menial tasks like cataloguing crates? It could have been handled so much better, especially if the reader had been made to feel far more sympathetic to Luger, which is so easy to do given his more passive and gentle personality compared to the other Grandmasters before and after him. I think that's my biggest qualm - it could have been handled better. Just because you look at his character like a plot point, doesn't mean he should be treated as some non-entity. Again, Lien-Da's villain status would have come across so much more if readers had been made to care about Luger first. Otherwise he just comes across as some speechless no one labelling crates.

IanPotto wrote:If I can find a place where I can devote valuable page time to the life and times of Luger, I will.

Sonic Universe? For a spin off title dedicated to world-building, it seems like the best place to do it, and I'm positive you could tell more of Luger's story and still make it relevant to present day events somehow. It doesn't alter the fact how his death was handled in StH #205 was pretty bad IMHO, but it could still build up his character and make his death more dramatic in hindsight if more people come to care about the character.
User avatar
Luger
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 2236
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:50 am
Location: Canada

Postby Kasumiyoh » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:52 am

I don't know.. I'm new but not new to the comics.. and the way Luger's death was played.. I got NO problems with it. But thats mainly due to me not really caring about the million plus one freaking Echindas in the book. So Hearing how this plays out I'm happy it doesn't try to force feed me someone I really don't care much about at ALL.


I just want Knuckles and everyone else to kindof act like more of the games they came from. But GREAT issue otherwise tho. Loving the works.
Kasumiyoh
BumbleFan
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:06 pm

Postby theJcfreak » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:14 am

Seriously, who cares about Luger? Some old guy who's dead and did something with the Dark Legion. Big whoop about him around here and I couldn't care less. I'm madly looking forward to this issue, what with the incredible sounding first story and the second story which delves into Lien-Da's past. Yeah, Lien-Da's. Not Luger's.

IanPotto wrote:Yes, I have done more grizzly demises on-screen. I regret that. Tommy's death - while masterfully rendered by the art team - was too much. I got overzealous in my attempts to please the fans with Tommy's fiery demise.


I must admit, that was definitely one of your more serious moments. While all of us faithful readers enjoyed it, it was rather.... physical? Not sure of the word, but I can honestly say it shocked my younger siblings. See, children pick up this book not to see violent deaths, but to see cool hedgehog bash bad guys. In my opinion, Sonic is not the place for violent deaths. I've noticed mentions of the Ancient Walkers and Sir Connery, I wouldn't even consider those as violent as Tommy. And the masks with the Ancient Walkers toned down their death a lot. Sir Connery's death was maybe the most emotional, what with him getting a grave and Elias thinking about the war.
User avatar
theJcfreak
BumbleChosen
 
Posts: 10652
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:59 am
Location: ふざけんなよ。

Postby Guest » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:18 am

Many thanks to Dr. Mechano of SSMB for the scan of this issue's off panel.

Image

I want this to happen Ian. I know where you live! :twisted:
Guest
 

Postby FairFieldFinder » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:23 am

Toby Barrett wrote:Many thanks to Dr. Mechano of SSMB for the scan of this issue's off panel.

Image

I want this to happen Ian. I know where you live! :twisted:


Bet Doc Eggman (aka: Dr. Mechano) was pleased with that one!
User avatar
FairFieldFinder
BumbleClan
 
Posts: 4043
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:34 am
Location: Liverpool, England

Postby phoenixdaughterAM » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:26 am

Toby Barrett wrote:Image

I want this to happen Ian. I know where you live! :twisted:


I hate to say this but I want this to happen as well.

Zoah got metioned? Does that mean the Voaxi are around? SWEET! PRIME ZONE APPEARANCE POTTO! MAKE IT HAPPEN!

Holding off my opinions on the story/backstory until I get my hands on this comic and do some indepth reading.
phoenixdaughterAM
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1114
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:49 pm
Location: Some college

Postby Tigsie » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:33 am

Wow. Didn't realize I would start fanning the flames so early in this discussion. @_@

I left my issue at home...so I'll just go ahead and discuss back story for now until I get a chance to flip through it again.

I really think this is just a case of too little too late. It brings up similar feelings of like when Kragok finally made a reappearance and then just suddenly died. I dunno what it is...bringing back characters just to bring down the hatchet. It leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth. And when we do get to see Luger all he does is do nothing. So that's why I'm disappointed. We already figured out he was murdered/banished/whatever a long time ago. Not important.

I think we should of had some sympathy for the poor guy, instead of just "Shoots gun...DEADERS! (hearty laughter)." His wife just got murdered!!! He must feel like he's a curse for losing two wives. I guess what I wanted was more interaction of the family time between Luger and his children. To see how Lien-Da and Krag felt ignored by Luger and felt jealousy for their sister Julie-Su. We just kind of get spoon fed that she hated him and wanted him dead, but we never get to shown examples of how and why. Like I think it'd been good for him to do something and then see Krag and Lien's reaction. So we get handed a climax instead of a build up. That's what my problem was with this story. I actually see this a lot in Ian's writing style.

I did find Kragok's interaction with Lien-Da kind of unexpected, but it would explain why she hates and distrusts everyone. I don't think saying things like "babysitting" in front of your soldiers is NOT a very good idea...this is going to come back and haunt her. Like when Scar from TLK is like "The hyenas are the REAL enemy!" and they over hear it. Lien really needs to learn if she wants to gain any respect she's going to have to show it to others. :C

Older fans like me care, but we are in like what...10 years since Julie-Su's back story happened. The time to tell this story should have been done a LONG time ago. The books main readership is much younger and don't have access to any Knuckles issues or the Super Specials. So why should they care?

Example:

I don't know.. I'm new but not new to the comics.. and the way Luger's death was played.. I got NO problems with it. But thats mainly due to me not really caring about the million plus one freaking Echindas in the book. So Hearing how this plays out I'm happy it doesn't try to force feed me someone I really don't care much about at ALL.


See? I'm just an old pair of shoes shoved in the closet. ;__;

So, I really do appreciate this story finally being told. I found it really odd though that Archie back in the day would show Edmund getting shot, but not Luger??? Guess times have changed.

Seriously, who cares about Luger? Some old guy who's dead and did something with the Dark Legion. Big whoop about him around here and I couldn't care less. I'm madly looking forward to this issue, what with the incredible sounding first story and the second story which delves into Lien-Da's past. Yeah, Lien-Da's. Not Luger's.


Sorry for caring. =P



EDIT: On another note. I was extremely happy that Twilight Cage and Zone are now the same thing. I did like the fact that the game basically borrowed the plot from the old books, but this leaves me to question how closely the Marauders and the Legion interacted? Seeing that they were two banished echidna species battling off the natives at the same time. I want to know!!! Or are they some kind of subdivision of Legion that branched off a long time ago?! That'd be pretty freakin' sweet.
User avatar
Tigsie
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:52 pm
Location: Pensacola, FL

Postby Meliden » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:54 am

Sympathy? As much as Luger is shown to be somewhat caring and all that jazz, you shouldn't forget that he was a Dark Legion Grandmaster. He's going to have evil under-currents, and not just petty crud, either. I suppose one could therefore say that killing him off before he's shown to be too compassionate for his intended role is a good thing.
User avatar
Meliden
BumbleCult
 
Posts: 6019
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: ベクエス

Postby shinginta » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:56 am

Tigsie wrote:I don't think saying things like "babysitting" in front of your soldiers is NOT a very good idea...this is going to come back and haunt her. Like when Scar from TLK is like "The hyenas are the REAL enemy!" and they over hear it. Lien really needs to learn if she wants to gain any respect she's going to have to show it to others. :C
I don't think she was referring to babysitting the troops.

On another note. I was extremely happy that Twilight Cage and Zone are now the same thing. I did like the fact that the game basically borrowed the plot from the old books, but this leaves me to question how closely the Marauders and the Legion interacted? Seeing that they were two banished echidna species battling off the natives at the same time. I want to know!!! Or are they some kind of subdivision of Legion that branched off a long time ago?! That'd be pretty freakin' sweet.
I like that they're the same thing now, I wish the official nomenclature would be "Twilight Cage" because it sounds better, brings it closer in line with the games again [even though the game probably isn't canon], and just plain sounds better than "Twilight Zone," which to new readers must seem like a ripoff of the show. I would be perfectly okay if the Legion supplanted the Marauders in this canon, since the entire plot of Chronicles was pretty much ripped straight from Archie Knuckles, only done horribly. And you say "borrowed," I say "stole." Just as a matter of opinion.
User avatar
shinginta
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1698
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:15 pm
Location: Aperture Science Enrichment Center Non-Discriminatory AI Disposal Ditch

Postby Tigsie » Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:02 am

Sympathy? As much as Luger is shown to be somewhat caring and all that jazz, you shouldn't forget that he was a Dark Legion Grandmaster. He's going to have evil under-currents, and not just petty crud, either. I suppose one could therefore say that killing him off before he's shown to be too compassionate for his intended role is a good thing.


Where you see black and white I see grey. Everyone has a choice between making good and horrible choices. Lien-Da murdered her father...so she paid for it. KARMA at its best. We can feel at least some kind of sympathy for Lien-Da and she's a villain. I don't see why we can't do the same for Luger. :) I have always felt very sympathic to the Legion. They were a victim of politics and banished to an unknown world to basically die on the decision of one echidna, Steppenwolf. That's pretty messed up. There is a REASON why they are who they are today.
User avatar
Tigsie
BumbleNoble
 
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:52 pm
Location: Pensacola, FL

PreviousNext

Return to This Side of Mobius



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

cron