Sonic the Hedgehog #205 Preview/Discussion/Spoilers/Cookies

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Postby Ian Flynn » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:06 pm

With regards to Luger, I can understand a level of disappointment, but I think it's disappointment in individuals' own personal beliefs not being realized versus what was actually there.

Luger was not a character; he was a plot point. He was a footnote in Julie-Su's origin story with no impact upon the main narrative and barely any influence in the greater echidna lore. To say he "had potential" is to say Betty Butterfly "has potential." She arguably has more - she's done more and said more while interacting with the main character.

Another way to look at it is through degrees of separation:

The comic is called "Sonic the Hedgehog."

1) Did Luger directly affect the title character? No.

2) Did Luger directly affect the supporting SegaSonic characters? No.
- despite Knuckles's ancestral rivalry with the Dark Legion, his only experience would've been Julie-Su recounting her past to him.

3) Did Luger directly affect the supporting ArchieSonic characters? Barely.
- he birthed Julie-Su, but he did not raise her, and she doesn't remember him. She only knows of him through Simon.

Lien-Da is the only strong link to Luger, and she is only now becoming a #3-type character. Up until now she's been more of a supporting character to Dimitri, making her a #4. This story arc is helping to cement her as a #3.

This was not a story that needed to be told. This was a purely fan-service indulgent story. This entire story could've been summed up in a word balloon:

LIEN-DA: "I should've been Grandmaster when I assassinated Luger, but Kragok tricked me out of that."

This was meant to give the hardcore echidna fans some closure and a chance to see Kragok again while the primary purpose of the story was to build up Lien-Da.

You can try to say Luger's fate is ambiguous if you want to. In the Super Special, Simon said Luger vanished under mysterious circumstances, and I honored that with the experimental weapon. I believe that it's very apparent Luger was atomized. No, we didn't see his flesh being vaporized because this is a children's book and I'm pushing the envelope as-is.

I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's opinion. I'm putting my thoughts forward for consideration before I'm crucified for killing off a virtual non-entity.

Otherwise, I'm happy to see folks are digging the current story arc. I was worried some wouldn't be pleased with Eggman's return not being a dramatic event, but after the last story arc, I felt we needed to lighten things up a bit.
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Postby Guest » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:08 pm

When are we going to see more of Betty Butterfly, Ian? :evil:
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Postby Dub » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:17 pm

All right.

I am SERIOUSLY mad.

This is so stupid. I have waited I-don't-know-how-many-years to see Betty Butterfly back in the book and then you go and do this? You go and tease me like this? BETTY BUTTERFLY DESERVED BETTER!!!

I HATE YOU IAN FLYNN.

DO YOU HEAR ME?!?!?

I HATE YOU AND I THINK YOU'RE A.... AAAAUUUGGGH!!!!!!
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Postby Ian Flynn » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:19 pm

Oh for pity's sake - it was a comparison! Both single-appearance characters with limited dialogue.

Go back to your Pro Nerbs Movement, or whatever.
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Postby Fruits Punch Samurai » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:47 pm

I think Ian is a man we can all believe in, guys. Don't believe in yourself! Believe in Ian, who believes in hating Marine! WHO DO YOU THINK HE IS?!


I never cared much for the echidnas and all of their back-story, and Sonic Adventure gave me enough back-story to be satisfied with... don't give me that look you guysssss! With all of the echidna focus we had in the comic for so long, I don't want to go back to that. Ian my man, thank you for moving on from that while giving us fanservice, you are the Big Boss of the Sonic series ;A;... wait, what.

Now get to work on that 8-issue Marine backstory where she is a pretty mermaid princess and gets into love triangles with Big and Tails and is secretly the REAL Ultimate Annihilator and gets thrown into space... now for a cool exit. (BOING) HURGLEGURGLEGURGLE--!!!
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Postby Duuz Diz Din » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:49 pm

IanPotto wrote:Go back to your Pro Nerbs Movement, or whatever.


Careful Mr. Flynn or you might find yourself playing a fun little game..... :twisted:
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Postby Luger » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:13 pm

IanPotto wrote:With regards to Luger, I can understand a level of disappointment, but I think it's disappointment in individuals' own personal beliefs not being realized versus what was actually there.

Luger was not a character; he was a plot point.

This is where I knew you would take the character, the Luger was a "plot point". While I see why you would feel that way, the fact that many others see him as a viable character suggests he was not limited to being a plot point. And, even granting you that, I still feel there could have been a heck of a lot more to him in this back story. You want to make Lien-Da seem like more of a credible villain? Why not then make Luger's death something readers feel far more sympathetic to? We learned a bit about him in SSS #11, enough that he was an incredibly distinct Grandmaster from those before and after him. This in itself should have warranted attention and possible character building. Instead, this issue shows him as some bored guy working on cataloguing crates. No one will feel sympathetic to that, and it doesn't make the impact of Lien-Da's actions feel nearly as deep as it could and should have.

IanPotto wrote:He was a footnote in Julie-Su's origin story with no impact upon the main narrative and barely any influence in the greater echidna lore. To say he "had potential" is to say Betty Butterfly "has potential." She arguably has more - she's done more and said more while interacting with the main character.

I disagree. Luger was the one thing that bound Lien-Da, Kragok and Julie-Su together. He was also arguably the reason Lien-Da and Kragok turned out so bad, barely parenting them at all. His legacy was that he was the first Grandmaster to have the Dark Legion willingly withdraw into the Twilight Zone. The dynamic between him and the other Grandmasters was incredible, and they definatly could have been played up. Why was he so liberal and passive, being the son of Moritori Rex, a known patriot to the Dark Legion cause? Questions like this are begging to be explored.

IanPotto wrote:Another way to look at it is through degrees of separation:

The comic is called "Sonic the Hedgehog."

1) Did Luger directly affect the title character? No.

But then hundreds of characters don't directly affect the title character. Almost every single 2nd-tier Knuckles the Echidna series character had no impact on Sonic (including almost all of the villain cast) until Karl Bollers made the effort for them to do so (this primarily happened in the RtAI arc) You could have made Luger influential to the current timeline of events and main stories if you wanted to. Even if he would never have any affect on Sonic himself, he could have had a significant role for Knuckles, Julie-Su and the surviving echidnas. You have a whole new title (Sonic Universe) dedicated to world building, yet time and time again it seems like you are squandering potential by simply axing elements of the story put in by previous writers you feel have no potential. Give them potential.

IanPotto wrote:2) Did Luger directly affect the supporting SegaSonic characters? No.
- despite Knuckles's ancestral rivalry with the Dark Legion, his only experience would've been Julie-Su recounting her past to him.

I can think of numerous ways in which Luger could have affected Knuckles, or other SegaSonic characters for that matter. I'm not going to rant my fan ideas here, but as a writer myself there are all sorts of ideas, and if I can come up with some, surely a writer of your capabilities and stature can come up with some too.

IanPotto wrote:3) Did Luger directly affect the supporting ArchieSonic characters? Barely.
- he birthed Julie-Su, but he did not raise her, and she doesn't remember him. She only knows of him through Simon.

His personal choices had a profound impact on Kragok and Lien-Da obviously (2 ArchieSonic characters). There's also so much room to explore the father-daughter potential with Julie-Su's foster parents now out of the picture. Again, you're the writer, you can make these things happen if you want to.

IanPotto wrote:This was not a story that needed to be told. This was a purely fan-service indulgent story. This entire story could've been summed up in a word balloon:

LIEN-DA: "I should've been Grandmaster when I assassinated Luger, but Kragok tricked me out of that."

This was meant to give the hardcore echidna fans some closure and a chance to see Kragok again while the primary purpose of the story was to build up Lien-Da.

I acknowledge that this was a fan-service story, but really, as someone who has repeatedly stated yourself a fan of the echidnas, I thought it would have been a lot more beefy in terms of material shown. Really, the story of Luger could have been handled a lot better. Ten years of waiting to barely get 2 panels and no dialogue? Come on.

IanPotto wrote:You can try to say Luger's fate is ambiguous if you want to. In the Super Special, Simon said Luger vanished under mysterious circumstances, and I honored that with the experimental weapon. I believe that it's very apparent Luger was atomized. No, we didn't see his flesh being vaporized because this is a children's book and I'm pushing the envelope as-is.

We saw Tommy Turtle literally being disintegrated by laser fire. We saw Lien-Da (MxYL) being ripped apart by the fabric of space-time. You're saying you couldn't have even had a panel showing a silhouette of Luger disappearing? And why go through all the trouble of making it an experimental, never-before-tested weapon that's effects ("atomizing") are pretty ambiguous to begin with, if you just wanted to outright kill him off and make it solidified he's gone for good?
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Postby Ashram » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:13 pm

Honestly, I imagined Luger as being different from every other Grandmaster (Aside from the current Dimitri) in that from what's been told, Luger was the least violent, bloodthirsty or conniving leader they've had. (Not to mention he's named after a gun, just like Remington.)

I'll just have to see what the second part of the story is about.
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Postby Luger » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:28 pm

One question I do have. Kragok mentions at best it'll look like Luger simply vanished, at worst it will appear like "some kind of Zoah attack". Are we ever going to find out what these so called "Zoahs" are? Oh wait, aren't they some race of aliens from Sonic Chronicles? If so, how do they fit into the continuity if that game isn't considered part of the Mobius Prime universe?
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Postby Nel » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:39 pm

Dimitri the Echidna wrote:One question I do have. Kragok mentions at best it'll look like Luger simply vanished, at worst it will appear like "some kind of Zoah attack". Are we ever going to find out what these so called "Zoahs" are? Oh wait, aren't they some race of aliens from Sonic Chronicles? If so, how do they fit into the continuity if that game isn't considered part of the Mobius Prime universe?


Just because the game's plot itself isn't doesn't restrict its elements from being used.

...I think.
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Postby bsonic10 » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:42 pm

NelStone wrote:
Dimitri the Echidna wrote:One question I do have. Kragok mentions at best it'll look like Luger simply vanished, at worst it will appear like "some kind of Zoah attack". Are we ever going to find out what these so called "Zoahs" are? Oh wait, aren't they some race of aliens from Sonic Chronicles? If so, how do they fit into the continuity if that game isn't considered part of the Mobius Prime universe?


Just because the game's plot itself isn't doesn't restrict its elements from being used.

...I think.


Exactly.

Ignoring the rest of the arguments in the thread right now:

Chronicles isn't considered 100% canon, but that doesn't mean certain characters, races, or elements can't be used from the game. As it is, the Twilight Zone can now be referred to as the Twilight Cage, which is where the Zoah and certain other races (including the Marauders and Kron) reside.
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Postby Nel » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:46 pm

I just looked through my flash drive for that comic I mentioned. I found that it had been made by the user WinonaHeart at DeviantArt. I'm not sure if she was the first to come up with it, but someone ripped someone off and got that into the comic. It just... irks me.
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Postby bsonic10 » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:49 pm

NelStone wrote:I just looked through my flash drive for that comic I mentioned. I found that it had been made by the user WinonaHeart at DeviantArt. I'm not sure if she was the first to come up with it, but someone ripped someone off and got that into the comic. It just... irks me.


I thought the picture looked familiar. Yeah, I think someone traced the picture and sent it into Archie. That sucks for the person who originally drew it (and they did draw it much better if I recall).

Also, picture reference of the Zoah:

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Postby shinginta » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:58 pm

As much as it pains me to admit it...
I agree with Dmitri this time.

I always though of Luger as the only Grandmaster that mattered. Most of the other Grandmasters aside from Dmitri have been interchangeable to me. But the fact that Luger was willing to end an attack because his wife fell desperately ill showed that he was different, and the fact that the Legion followed him back into the Twilight Cage willingly rather than dissent showed that he had their respect as well. I always looked at Luger as "The good guy" Grandmaster. And it was always interesting to me that the direct son of Moritori Rex was the "Good" Legionaire, while the Brotherhood member actually raised by Moritori was the "Bad" Brother.

I especially saw that Luger, if he was alive, would provide an interesting perspective on Grandmasters, and that he would definitely be of interest to the former Legionaires trying to find concordant life again in Albion. While I vastly prefer Ian's writing and editorial choices on the book to previous writers, and I very firmly believe that this is the best that the [or any] Archie comic's ever been, we all have things that we think are missteps by Ian, or things we'd rather not have seen happen. I was okay with Locke's sacrifice. It took a while to adjust to, but I was okay with the destruction of Albion. I loved the explanation for why Eggman has to stay in the Prime Zone, and I loved the retrofitting and reworking of Moebius. But I can't honestly say that I like the decision to vaporize Luger.

I really do think that Luger would have been a good addition to the cast as a supporting Knuckles/Julie-Su character. If anything, I'd love to see the tension created when he returns and the different factions see him differently. Mostly I just think that the only Grandmaster that ever really mattered, arguably the only one given any kind of characterization, deserved more of a role, and does have a place in current comic continuity.
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Postby FrogLenzen » Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:08 pm

Yeah, Ian might have been able to make Luger an interesting/important character if he wanted, but why would he want that? Not everyone was waiting ten years for Luger to return. A majority of the Sonic readers probably don't even know who Luger is. Just like Lien-Da killed Luger to try and gain power, Ian killed Luger to try and give Lien-Da a stronger standing as a character in the book. I have no issue with that, no matter how cool Luger could have been. I say put the effort into other characters. Like poor Lien-Da. Or Betty.
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