Mega Man #53 - Spoilers & Discussion

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Re: Mega Man #53 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Bean » Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:54 pm

It's also probably the same reason why Quake Woman was added in, to give the series a female robot master that could be used in stories like she was quite a bit in the book's second year (#13-16, #19, #22). Roll's role is pretty defined, but I wouldn't exactly object to Capcom creating "Roll Woman" or something one day if they ever try to continue on past MM10 for the classic series.
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Re: Mega Man #53 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby LBD_Nytetrayn » Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:02 pm

Hard to win here, given the source material. There are few female characters in the Classic series, fewer still suited to much in the way of heavy action. Tampering with those there runs the risk of altering the characters and making people upset, and while the comic has added others who better fulfill such roles, then you run into the danger of butting heads with those who hate any original characters at all.

--LBD "Nytetrayn"
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Re: Mega Man #53 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Bean » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:28 am

Yeah, but as we saw from that one letter, some people don't care about the source material as much. I think Roll's stuck in her role no matter what because she's never been defined as anything more than a helper bot, but it'll be interesting to see if the comic continues how other official arcs would be handled. The Mega Man Powered Up, 2, and Super Adventure Rockman arcs all had creative liberties to them whereas 1 and 3 more or less played out like they did in their games just from different viewpoints. Like, would we see other Robot Masters join Mega Man against Cossack or would they be sent out after them on their own? Stuff like that.

Let's just say that while I wasn't a fan of Issue #20 in terms of its pacing, it did have me wanting to see those games get the comic-ized treatment. In that regard, the issue did a good job of keeping me interested. Always felt like that second year was more of an experimental year to see what worked and what didn't.
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Re: Mega Man #53 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby diamonddeath » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:53 am

I found it interesting that Mega Man has been saving the world for years. Just how much time has passed between all the stories?
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Re: Mega Man #53 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby LBD_Nytetrayn » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:26 am

Bean wrote:Yeah, but as we saw from that one letter, some people don't care about the source material as much.


Precisely a part of why I said it's hard to win here. No matter what, someone's coming out of this unhappy.

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Re: ANGER AND LOUD NOISES.

Postby DoNotDelete » Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:21 am

I am loathe to contribute to this conversation any more - but somebody else has touched a nerve with me today on this subject and I'm sporting a full head of steam now.

For one, I resent the implication that Roll's function as a domestic robot - and all that entails - is somehow not a respectable lifestyle choice. Even that is a broken argument because Roll is a robot designed to fulfil a function that she didn't necessarily have a choice in - she's probably even programmed to be happy doing what she does, cleaning the house and looking out for Dr. Light and Rock.

Getting upset about and screaming: "Gender prejudice!" "Stereotype!" "Irrepresentative of my gender!" or "Non-progressive!" just doesn't wash when you consider the context and the character's background.

What if we asked Roll what she wanted to do? What if we asked her if she was happy being a domestic robot? Would she even have the capacity to consider alternative lifestyles?

If she said she was happy and all that she wanted to do was clean the house and look after Dr. Light and Rock - would that be enough for objectors? Or would they try to insinuate that she's been 'conditioned' into thinking that way (which, ironically she has been - being a robot that's been programmed to do a certain task). Then comes the argument she needs to be 'liberated' to free her from her evil male oppressors who have brainwashed her into being a perfectly content domestic household robot (who just happens to have the appearance of a little girl).

It's too convenient to use fictional characters as subjects for proving/disproving social progression - all the time arguments are being made the desires of the character are generally ignored and can't be proven or disproven anyway - because they're fictional characters! Calling into question the intentions of the character's creator or the story's author is only relevant when you consider the work as a whole - characters of all walks of life have their place in stories - maids, tomboys, scientists, nuclear physicists. To say a work must have a spread of characters that 'truthfully represents' a certain gender's potential is just ludicrous. For example, what place does a nuclear physicist have in a story about gardening!? Relevant characters in relevant situations. Introducing token characters just to appease the disgruntled and the disenchanted is a poor approach to telling a story - and it's also an insult to true social progression.

It also seems like a fool's errand to me to pick out individual characters to prove/disprove that a work is 'progressive enough' - or that society is 'moving forward'. It's pointless, irritating, infuriating and - ironically - counter-progressive. If we only approve of stories that put forward a notion of female characters in what we perceive to be 'a positive light' we're just creating another skewed mindset. It is not progression in the truest sense - it is the illusion of progression.

And at the end of it all let us not forget we are talking about a robot. A robot designed to fulfill a domestic function. We are not talking about human being with all the problems and uncertainties of self-determination. But let's overlook that for the convenience of proving how non-progressive society is.

Absolutely illogical. Entirely senseless. Utterly pointless. Beyond my patience.


Of course getting this worked up about a letter I haven't even read is sillier still, but it is what it is.

But that's it. That's why I'm angry about this. Aren't you glad you read it. Nope.
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Re: Mega Man #53 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby ReifuTD » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:06 am

People complain about this things all the time I don't think it's helpful, Complaining about Roll being a female domestic robot also the effects real women who do actual domestic by tell them that they are doing something wrong for just doing their job. I remember very similar thing happens with people complaining about how some characters in media like in cartoons and video games look.Some people would complaint that some female character are too skinny or have breast that are too big. When the Final Fantasy 7 remake was announced there was a bunch of people try to cause an up roar saying wanted Tifa's breast size to be reduced because it was giving women unrealistic body image. But there are actually women out there that naturally have Tifa's body type who don't like being told theirs something wrong with the way they look. Plus it's Tifa is a cartoon character and should be allowed a bit a symbolism.
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Re: Mega Man #53 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Striker » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:59 am

Pro-tip: SJW is not the insult you think it is.

Anyways.

What are the thoughts on the issue as a whole? Good? Bad?
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Re: Mega Man #53 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Bean » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:35 am

I said it in my short recap, but it felt like the book was pretty much right back where it left off. Mega's going through two moral dilemmas in the issue. One, he's starting to feel like he always has to be the hero, even thinking that when he was called for help that he was needed to fight. Two, he doesn't like seeing his kind suffering and put into battle. Seeing eight robot masters shut down in front of his eyes is still haunting him.

In other words, it again felt like a second aftermath issue to the MM3 storyline that also decided to jump right into MM4... that may or may not ever be shown in the book depending on what happens in the near future. Oh, and Wily was shown to have already been building the body of Crystal Man (MM5), too.
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Re: Mega Man #53 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Astrobot7000 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:16 am

Roll is more than a house keeper though. She has been shown to be a fairly decent fighter (VS Sticks story), and was shown to be able to repair Proto Man entirely on her own with no assistance from Dr. Light, which is a lot more competant than Mega Man ever was who didn't know the different wrench types. You don't have to be a warrior to be awesome.
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Re: Mega Man #53 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:22 pm

If I may?

SJW is a legit term. Thing is its overused, like virtually any term on Internet. http://jalopyrustbucket.tumblr.com/post ... al-justice This is example of being SJW. Claiming you can't be racist to white people, dismissing other's opinions based on race or gender, using terms like "male tears", doxxing people (but you know, for right reasons) -there are good examples of SJW deeds. Lets not throw that term lightly, alright? We're undermining its meaning.

And before someone says "its too late, just abandon it", well then we can abandon bunch of other terms - oppression, misogyny, etc.

Anyway, I think Mega Mail did good job defending itself. Roll is good character. She's as legit as every other character, fighter or not. There are new female characters that do fight. I see no issue.

Thats my little contribution to conversation. Please carry on.
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Re: Mega Man #53 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby SonicBlueRanger » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:25 pm

MetalSkulkBane wrote:If I may?

SJW is a legit term. Thing is its overused, like virtually any term on Internet. http://jalopyrustbucket.tumblr.com/post ... al-justice This is example of being SJW. Claiming you can't be racist to white people, dismissing other's opinions based on race or gender, using terms like "male tears", doxxing people (but you know, for right reasons) -there are good examples of SJW deeds. Lets not throw that term lightly, alright? We're undermining its meaning.


I have never seen any non-ironic use of the phrase "Male Tears" and I've never seen any example of any of the other things listed here. People constantly claim this stuff but I have never seen any actual examples given.
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Re: Mega Man #53 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby The Shadow Imperator » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:50 pm

MetalSkulkBane wrote:If I may?

SJW is a legit term. Thing is its overused, like virtually any term on Internet. http://jalopyrustbucket.tumblr.com/post ... al-justice This is example of being SJW. Claiming you can't be racist to white people, dismissing other's opinions based on race or gender, using terms like "male tears", doxxing people (but you know, for right reasons) -there are good examples of SJW deeds. Lets not throw that term lightly, alright? We're undermining its meaning.

The examples you gave range from trivial beyond all measure ("male tears") to actually harmful behavior ("doxxing"). If anything you've just proven that "SJW" is a meaningless insult people throw at each other without any real understanding of the underlying issues or their actual significance.
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Re: Mega Man #53 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby The KKM » Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:02 pm

SonicBlueRanger wrote:
MetalSkulkBane wrote:If I may?

SJW is a legit term. Thing is its overused, like virtually any term on Internet. http://jalopyrustbucket.tumblr.com/post ... al-justice This is example of being SJW. Claiming you can't be racist to white people, dismissing other's opinions based on race or gender, using terms like "male tears", doxxing people (but you know, for right reasons) -there are good examples of SJW deeds. Lets not throw that term lightly, alright? We're undermining its meaning.


I have never seen any non-ironic use of the phrase "Male Tears" and I've never seen any example of any of the other things listed here. People constantly claim this stuff but I have never seen any actual examples given.


You seem very keen to shoving any of those cases away as "oh it's just ironic". Can't you just shove SJW as "oh it's just ironic" too then so we can move on?
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Re: Mega Man #53 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Penguin God » Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:58 pm

Guys, the issue was not that domestic work is a terrible lifestyle. The issue was that in a series with over 70 named characters, there was only two girls, and of course they're also the domestic maid and the girl kidnapped to motivate her father. Saying she was programmed to enjoy it only makes it worse, like way worse. Archie actually did get around this by introducing more female characters, because when there's multiple in a variety of roles (just like the male characters) then being domestic isn't suddenly the only thing a girl can do in the series. You're all getting mad at something the series has actually addressed and already admitted was a problem, then came up with a solution that didn't alter who Roll was or her strengths or demean her in any way.
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