Comcept Kickstarters Red Ash, a spiritual successor to MML

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Re: Comcept Kickstarters Red Ash, a spiritual successor to M

Postby lalalei2001 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:56 am

The anime KS scored basic funding.

The game KS? 5 hours left and...yeah, it's nowhere close to basic funding.
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Re: Comcept Kickstarters Red Ash, a spiritual successor to M

Postby Damo » Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:58 pm

lalalei2001 wrote:The anime KS scored basic funding.


I wish I could say I found that a silver lining to the mess this has become, but my feelings are quite the opposite. The abysmal time and place chosen to announce Red Ash benefited the animation at the game's expense. Having two kickstarters at once both made people feel that comcept was moving too fast and split the resources of some of the most die-hard fans, diminishing the overall momentum. That would all be bad enough even if the animation was well-poised to provide synergistic benefits to the game, but that doesn't seem to be the case. comcept's given Studio4C as much creative freedom as they like, and the studio has taken that freedom to such a ridiculous extreme that it undermines the potential benefits of such a collaboration. Not only have they expressed a lack of interest in collaborating with comcept for story and characterization elements (apparently deciding to instead set their short in an "alternate universe"), but they even disagree with comcept on basic elements of the main characters' designs (creating confusion and annoyance in some fans already). Even knowing things are still in an early stage, I'm extremely critical of their choices, and of comcept's willingness to let them dilute the concepts like this. I'd really have to say that involving Studio4C in their Red Ash plans was the biggest mistake comcept has ever made.
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Re: Comcept Kickstarters Red Ash, a spiritual successor to M

Postby Mavrickindigo » Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:49 pm

Damo wrote:
lalalei2001 wrote:The anime KS scored basic funding.


I wish I could say I found that a silver lining to the mess this has become, but my feelings are quite the opposite. The abysmal time and place chosen to announce Red Ash benefited the animation at the game's expense. Having two kickstarters at once both made people feel that comcept was moving too fast and split the resources of some of the most die-hard fans, diminishing the overall momentum. That would all be bad enough even if the animation was well-poised to provide synergistic benefits to the game, but that doesn't seem to be the case. comcept's given Studio4C as much creative freedom as they like, and the studio has taken that freedom to such a ridiculous extreme that it undermines the potential benefits of such a collaboration. Not only have they expressed a lack of interest in collaborating with comcept for story and characterization elements (apparently deciding to instead set their short in an "alternate universe"), but they even disagree with comcept on basic elements of the main characters' designs (creating confusion and annoyance in some fans already). Even knowing things are still in an early stage, I'm extremely critical of their choices, and of comcept's willingness to let them dilute the concepts like this. I'd really have to say that involving Studio4C in their Red Ash plans was the biggest mistake comcept has ever made.

Straw the broke the camel's back for you, huh?
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Re: Comcept Kickstarters Red Ash, a spiritual successor to M

Postby Bean » Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:59 pm

Reading the comments on the KS, and a lot of people are again using it to bash a community manager. I even saw it on GAF, but I think Damo diffused it with that post there. Like I said, those kind of hateful comments reflect poorly on a fan base as a whole.

This KS deserved to fail with how it was run, but like usual, some people are going too far.
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Re: Comcept Kickstarters Red Ash, a spiritual successor to M

Postby Damo » Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:28 pm

Mavrickindigo wrote:
Damo wrote:
lalalei2001 wrote:The anime KS scored basic funding.


I wish I could say I found that a silver lining to the mess this has become, but my feelings are quite the opposite. The abysmal time and place chosen to announce Red Ash benefited the animation at the game's expense. Having two kickstarters at once both made people feel that comcept was moving too fast and split the resources of some of the most die-hard fans, diminishing the overall momentum. That would all be bad enough even if the animation was well-poised to provide synergistic benefits to the game, but that doesn't seem to be the case. comcept's given Studio4C as much creative freedom as they like, and the studio has taken that freedom to such a ridiculous extreme that it undermines the potential benefits of such a collaboration. Not only have they expressed a lack of interest in collaborating with comcept for story and characterization elements (apparently deciding to instead set their short in an "alternate universe"), but they even disagree with comcept on basic elements of the main characters' designs (creating confusion and annoyance in some fans already). Even knowing things are still in an early stage, I'm extremely critical of their choices, and of comcept's willingness to let them dilute the concepts like this. I'd really have to say that involving Studio4C in their Red Ash plans was the biggest mistake comcept has ever made.

Straw the broke the camel's back for you, huh?


I'm happy with what I've seen and played of MN9, and have confidence in the abilities of the Red Ash dev team. Studio4C are another matter entirely, and I think comcept made several bad moves during the kickstarter (compounded with a smaller number of things I'd chalk up to poor luck), with the decision to work with Studio4C being first and foremost. I think unless 4C change their approach, the benefits of the collaboration are vastly outweighed by what it has cost.
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Re: Comcept Kickstarters Red Ash, a spiritual successor to M

Postby WiNTER BELLS » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:31 pm

All in all, I feel this Kickstarter was a train-wreck in nearly every conceivable fashion that managed to end better than it should have. This whole thing was a mess... but I'm still pleased that it's happening.
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Re: Comcept Kickstarters Red Ash, a spiritual successor to M

Postby DudestofGuys » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:46 am

Damo wrote:I wish I could say I found that a silver lining to the mess this has become, but my feelings are quite the opposite. The abysmal time and place chosen to announce Red Ash benefited the animation at the game's expense. Having two kickstarters at once both made people feel that comcept was moving too fast and split the resources of some of the most die-hard fans, diminishing the overall momentum. That would all be bad enough even if the animation was well-poised to provide synergistic benefits to the game, but that doesn't seem to be the case. comcept's given Studio4C as much creative freedom as they like, and the studio has taken that freedom to such a ridiculous extreme that it undermines the potential benefits of such a collaboration. Not only have they expressed a lack of interest in collaborating with comcept for story and characterization elements (apparently deciding to instead set their short in an "alternate universe"), but they even disagree with comcept on basic elements of the main characters' designs (creating confusion and annoyance in some fans already). Even knowing things are still in an early stage, I'm extremely critical of their choices, and of comcept's willingness to let them dilute the concepts like this. I'd really have to say that involving Studio4C in their Red Ash plans was the biggest mistake comcept has ever made.


Oh no, they're trying to make something they actually think is worth their time instead of sticking to the letter for a shameless bootleg franchise intended to gain funding through nostalgia. Those fiends.

I mean, what fan in their right mind would enjoy an adaptation that diverges from the source material heavily in some places but barely at all in others?
Spoiler: show
Seriously, you know who 4°C are, right? You know that this is basically how they handle every adaptation and tie in they do aside from the Berserk movies, right? Being exactly the same doesn't matter if it's good, and 4°C has one heck of a resume behind them.
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Re: Comcept Kickstarters Red Ash, a spiritual successor to M

Postby Damo » Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:45 am

DudestofGuys wrote:
Damo wrote:I wish I could say I found that a silver lining to the mess this has become, but my feelings are quite the opposite. The abysmal time and place chosen to announce Red Ash benefited the animation at the game's expense. Having two kickstarters at once both made people feel that comcept was moving too fast and split the resources of some of the most die-hard fans, diminishing the overall momentum. That would all be bad enough even if the animation was well-poised to provide synergistic benefits to the game, but that doesn't seem to be the case. comcept's given Studio4C as much creative freedom as they like, and the studio has taken that freedom to such a ridiculous extreme that it undermines the potential benefits of such a collaboration. Not only have they expressed a lack of interest in collaborating with comcept for story and characterization elements (apparently deciding to instead set their short in an "alternate universe"), but they even disagree with comcept on basic elements of the main characters' designs (creating confusion and annoyance in some fans already). Even knowing things are still in an early stage, I'm extremely critical of their choices, and of comcept's willingness to let them dilute the concepts like this. I'd really have to say that involving Studio4C in their Red Ash plans was the biggest mistake comcept has ever made.


Oh no, they're trying to make something they actually think is worth their time instead of sticking to the letter for a shameless bootleg franchise intended to gain funding through nostalgia. Those fiends.

I mean, what fan in their right mind would enjoy an adaptation that diverges from the source material heavily in some places but barely at all in others?
Spoiler: show
Seriously, you know who 4°C are, right? You know that this is basically how they handle every adaptation and tie in they do aside from the Berserk movies, right? Being exactly the same doesn't matter if it's good, and 4°C has one heck of a resume behind them.


Quite a few staffers from Legends are on the Red Ash team, and Capcom is sitting on the Legends property (probably wondering if they can turn it into a phone game). The "shameless bootleg" insult seems toothless in my eyes, what with X-Over being the most recent Totally-Legit 100%-The-Real-Deal Official Megaman title. Give me a "shameless bootleg" over that any day, especially with a solid enough dev team.

And I'm no stranger to Studio4C. I'm more a fan of their older work (Magnetic Rose > their Berserk stuff), but their star-power is undeniable and they're at the bleeding edge of merging computer animation with anime styles. But that's part of the problem. Because Studio4C are such a big deal, comcept wanted to do a whole animation and not just bring them in for cutscenes, meaning a separate kickstarter. But scheduling the kickstarters at a time most beneficial to Studio4C meant launching at a time that was awful for the game. Additionally, I suspect that at least one of the reasons why comcept kept the game's kickstarter going after the FUZE deal was that cancelling it might have negatively impacted the Studio4C kickstarter, and not canceling the kickstarter sooner severely tarnished comcept's image. And like I said, the whole thing magnified the impression that comcept is getting ahead of itself. Studio4C does do their own interpretations, but generally it's a take on an established work that's found its own footing first. In this case, the Red Ash game hasn't established itself, and Studio4C seems to be posed to diverge in a few questionable ways (to point at the most obvious example, I have no idea why on Earth they decided to change the color of Call's skin. I can't think of any good explanation for doing that). I think the agreement with 4C was the crucial misstep in the planning stages that started a domino effect of more and more things going wrong, and I'm very skeptical that the resulting work will be good enough or benefit the game enough to outweigh the damage that's been done.
Last edited by Damo on Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Comcept Kickstarters Red Ash, a spiritual successor to M

Postby Mordum » Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:49 am

Damo wrote:

Quite a few staffers from Legends are on the Red Ash team, and Capcom is sitting on the Legends property (probably wondering if they can turn it into a phone game). The "shameless bootleg" insult seems toothless in my eyes, what with X-Over being the most recent Totally-Legit 100%-The-Real-Deal Official Megaman title. Give me a "shameless bootleg" over that any day, especially with a solid enough dev team.


Some people actually want creators to be, y'know.

Creative.

Seriously, countless properties are sat on by their studios all the time. This isn't anything even vaguely new or even unusual, yet gamers act like this is the biggest crime in the world.

EDIT: I was gonna mock how the skin change crack seemed a little weird, but I think I'd gotten the pictures to which project mixed up so I'll admit to fallibility for one brief instant. Whitening up Call is more than a little creepy and weird, I agree.
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Re: Comcept Kickstarters Red Ash, a spiritual successor to M

Postby LBD_Nytetrayn » Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:57 am

Damo wrote:Quite a few staffers from Legends are on the Red Ash team, and Capcom is sitting on the Legends property (probably wondering if they can turn it into a phone game).


That's a stupid thing for them to wonder. There are already more mobile DASH games than there are for anything else.

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Re: Comcept Kickstarters Red Ash, a spiritual successor to M

Postby Bean » Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:59 am

Damo wrote:Quite a few staffers from Legends are on the Red Ash team, and Capcom is sitting on the Legends property (probably wondering if they can turn it into a phone game). The "shameless bootleg" insult seems toothless in my eyes, what with X-Over being the most recent Totally-Legit 100%-The-Real-Deal Official Megaman title. Give me a "shameless bootleg" over that any day, especially with a solid enough dev team.

They actually tried that plan with Legends already in 2008.
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Re: Comcept Kickstarters Red Ash, a spiritual successor to M

Postby Damo » Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:10 am

Mordum wrote:Some people actually want creators to be, y'know.

Creative.


Well let's compare Capcom's approach to comcept's.

comcept decided to do something reminiscent of the old Megaman games, while making some new twists on the gameplay and seeing if they could fit more storytelling into it than was common in the Capcom platformers.

Capcom released X-Over.

comcept brought in some devs that had worked on a game series which only saw three core games published (leaving out Dash golf and the like...), offering them a chance to do something with some similarities in gameplay but new characters and some possibilities that were not available to an "open world" game years ago.

Capcom is re-releasing some Mega Man games.

For all the talk about comcept doing "knock offs" and "not being creative," these devs are still being more creative than the company they broke away from.

And no, it's not a crime for a publisher to sit on a property. But I tend to side with devs. If a bunch of devs want to do something similar to their old work, and their old publisher won't let them, and they can find another way? Good for them. IGA and Inti want to make something with a Castlevania feel and all Konami wants to do with Castlevania is make an unusually tacky Pachinko game, I say they should. It might not be a crime for a publisher to sit on a property, but it's also certainly not a crime for the devs to try to find a way to make what they want to make.
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Re: Comcept Kickstarters Red Ash, a spiritual successor to M

Postby Bean » Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:15 am

I'm in agreement with you on that. I enjoyed Azure Striker Gunvolt as the Mega Man Zero/ZX-like but not exact game it was. I hope Bloodstained and Mighty No. 9 are good. And Konami and Capcom's corporate culture in recent years is definitely leaving something to be desired, the former much worse off than the latter with recent news surfacing.

The legitimate problems with Red Ash's Kickstarter was definitely timing and approach. You mentioned how you hated the "prologue" part in the pitch, but that one word threw the whole project into the wind right then and there. If that was you on NeoGAF, you saw how a good many of people were confused by that and the confusion only continued throughout the project.

I really do wonder how Capcom will take that Kickstarter's failure or if they'd even pay attention to it at all. In the end, there were people celebrating and laughing at its failure, and to me, I think that goes a bit too far. At the same time, the focus from Comcept should've been on getting Mighty No. 9 out the door before announcing another one. I know that's not how game development works, but if they were going to ask fans for more money, the first project needed to be delivered. Then, and only if the first project was good, would any positive buzz go into the second.

Instead, this campaign was torched constantly and consistently due to its clear lack of a game plan.
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Re: Comcept Kickstarters Red Ash, a spiritual successor to M

Postby Mavrickindigo » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:28 am

I honestly think that now Capcom is trying to do something with Mega Man, but fans like us have made them deathly afraid of ticking us off again. We got what they probably thought was a guaranteed money maker to never be localized over here, and they have recently changed their DLC practices with Street Fighter 5.
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Re: Comcept Kickstarters Red Ash, a spiritual successor to M

Postby Penguin God » Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:54 pm

Capcom realizing that not everybody likes shoddy games and paying tons of extra money for games isn't exactly a flaw with the fans, nor does it really have anything that shows they're trying to do something with Mega Man.
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