Robot Dilemmas Discussion

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Robot Dilemmas Discussion

Postby ReifuTD » Tue May 26, 2015 7:44 pm

The issue 49 debate was making want to do this topic. Basically robots had appeared in lots of fictional stories over the years. So I'm wondering what kind of issues involving robots we've seen with robots dealt with in various fiction. Half because one of the Mega Man's strengths is dealing with morality and limitations of robots. Other half kind of seeing what issues haven't been dealt with in the comics.

Here's some of what I can think of off my head and feel free to add any issues I forgot about or didn't bring up.

Stuck in a Child's Body

This is something that have been touched upon in different fiction, not just with robots but with things involving immortal humans that don't age. Part of the conflict that comes of this is that a person stuck in a child's body basically matures beyond the physical age. Although sometimes the physical age affects how they act whether it be how the brain works or them pretending to act more child like.

In the case of robots depending on how the robot is programmed they either don't realize or care that they are stuck in a child's body for what could be all of their existence keeping the same mental maturity. While some might age and become more mature may even try to improve themselves like giving themselves a body that fits their evolving self.

Actually I have a headcanon around Mega Man 7 area character designs change what I think makes the characters look older. So I like to think that maybe Rock and Roll get upgraded bodies to reflect their older selves.

Death/Illness of Love Ones

This is a thing I've seen touched upon in robot fiction where a creator or someone a robot being is attached too. Be it by age or by tragic accident than the robot has to do with the loss.

They don't exactly have to die maybe dealing with some kind of illness. Maybe a paralyzing accident or progressive disease like cancer or mental illness.

Seeing this explored in the comics would be a bit interesting because for example it would mean that character would have to exist to die or suffer from an illness. In classic Mega Man games no character fits this the example I can think of. What makes it interesting is that characters have been introduced that of people who involved with established Robot Masters. So who knows what robot characters could end up dealing with this issue in the future.

The X series has a Doctor Kain who has been shown being a healthy old man and also a wood chair bound invalid hooked up to machines to keep him alive.

Physical Decay/Aging/Becoming Outdated to the Point of Being Unable to Be Repaired of Robots

I've seen this done in different media as well, notably near end of the classic Robotcop series were the parts to keep Alex Murphy running starting to become really hard to come by. Casshern Sins had some kind of decaying disease going on with their robots and has them dealing with their mortality.

Not 100% sure but given how expansive the Mega Man timeline I'm pretty sure this issue had to been touched upon. Then again a lot of the robots in the history of the franchise seems pretty durable.

As for the classic series are many theories as to why the classic era Robots don't appear in the X series in beyond so...

Suicide/Self-Sacrifice

There are plenty of stories were robots destroy themselves for various reasons. This is something that's been kind of touched upon in the comic books but more an aspect of being ordered to do something knowing fully well that they were meant to lose or be destroyed. Rock sacrificed himself to save the world from Ra Moon.

I know Asimov's laws basically suppose to stop self termination. I'm sure most Classic era robots has such safeguards. But given how emotional they are out of imagine that idea of not being able to end your life would be a horrible thought specially when your practically immortal.

X series I seem to I remember touching upon the concept of suicide and self-sacrifice a lot more.

Inclusion of Flesh and Other Organic Materials in Robotic Design

I know in later Mega Man games the line between organic and robotic beings blur a lot and in fiction has shown many different levels of to cyborgs humans with robotic parts. To robots like the Terminator that use skin and muscle as an outer coating.

Actually this is interesting living in a time where we can 3-D print organic material. Imagining the reaction of people of the first time someone actually tries to slap meat and skin over a robotic skeleton.

Deletion and Reprogramming

Keeping the issue 49 debate mine as well as the sections on suicide and robots losing a loved one. An interesting aspect is that some robots believed that changing the programming is basically killing them. So basically if a robot chooses to delete information that maybe an aspect of their personality or maybe the memories of someone he want to forget, could be considered a form of suicide.

Human/Machine Reproduction

This is something that eventually happens in the Mega Man universe because the existence of Carbons that are descended from humans and robots. I remember this anime I watched that had the government experimenting with the idea of robots that could get pregnant and care for human children as a way to boost the human population. Given how low the human population seems to be in the X era this seems to be more a X series issue then classic.

Abuse

I guess this is something that has been touched upon with people that hate robots and Wily using his robots as paws to be destroyed. But I can't think of any moments in the comics that actually shows systemic misuse of the robot like horrible working conditions or making them work with broken parts. Making the robots do demeaning things beyond the scope which they would need to do their job correctly.

Sexual Objectification

Society likes attractive men and women and a lot of times in fiction the model their robot that worked in public to look like men and women that are visually pleasing. People may simply covet themselves with attractive humanlike robots wanting something pleasing to look at that look like a person that would do whatever they asked.

The issue with sexual objectification is that by its nature objectification of a being human, animal or robot opens up to abuse and misusing that being. Someone people maybe more apt to sexually harassing a robot then sexually harassing a human since robots may tend to be more variable.

Then there's the morality of making a robot for sexual purposes. But I doubt the comic would dive to deep in this specific aspect. If it did probably nothing more than lightly imply that kind of icky.

Robots Making and Programming Other the Robots

I find myself thinking of Will Smith's quote from the I Robot movie about robots building robots. I believe in the classic series Mega Man I seem to remember King being a robot the ability to reprogram other robots. I'm not sure if he was the exception for robots in the Classic era. In other stories I've seen safeguards put into place to stop robots from accessing and reprogramming each other.

An aspect of debate is without the ability to program and make their own robots can't evolve as a life form or as a society. I could imagine a lot of interesting debates and situations arising from this.

Robots That Believe Humanity Is Inferior

Can't remember any points in them Mega Man games that specifically had a race of robotic people trying to hunt down and kill humans. The best my knowledge is mostly robot on robot violence. But to my knowledge on the Mega Man games can be spotty. Although robots trying to end humanities become a trope.

Robot Psychiatrist

This was an aspect of I Robot novel I liked. A Robot Psychologist is someone who basically looks that robots prime directives and operating order, in the case of I Robot Asimov's laws of robotics. Figures out why a robot does what they do and if a robot has a problem with their programming. Figure out what needs to change about robot's programming or how humans should interact with the robot to fix the problem.

I personally would love to see certain aspects of why some the robots in Mega Man explain why think the way they do.

Robots Part Programmed to Kill People

So far in the comics there haven't been much mentioned about robots used in the military. At the most we seen was Dr. Light and Wily building Blues as a prototype for the military with the military using him to make the Sniper Joe models. There are military themed Robot Masters so I'd expect this to get more explored. It's hard to imagine any robot in the armed forces not having to deal with hurting or even killing people.

A Robot's Economic Independence

Another aspect I haven't seen touched upon in the comics that I've seen that with other robot fiction is the idea that a robot can make its own paycheck. I remember the movie Bicentennial Man were this is was a big deal with a robot trying to start up his own business but was unable to open its own bank account.

Identity

Biggest last big thing he could think of is identity, lot of times in fiction of her characters who appear to be human but are actually robots but didn't know they were robots. Also the idea of people having hidden personalities programmed into them that activate without their knowledge.
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Re: Robot Dilemmas Discussion

Postby DoNotDelete » Wed May 27, 2015 4:37 am

You've brought a lot to the table all at once there - trying to respond to it is kind of daunting. Is there any particular topic you feel strongly about/want to discuss?

ReifuTD wrote:Robots That Believe Humanity Is Inferior

Can't remember any points in them Mega Man games that specifically had a race of robotic people trying to hunt down and kill humans. The best my knowledge is mostly robot on robot violence. But to my knowledge on the Mega Man games can be spotty. Although robots trying to end humanities become a trope.

I personally find it interesting how many people in the real world are afraid of the 'robot apocalypse' - I've had many real-world discussions with people who are deathly afraid of machines ever gaining full sentience/sapience - as if at that point human beings are immediately doomed to being overrun by the 'evil machine overlords'.

That machines would immediately become hostile to their creators is probably as naive as believing they wouldn't, but to argue against ever giving machines sentience/sapience because they might become hostile is an argument I can't go along with.

I'm personally not afraid of machines gaining sentience/sapience - but I think that if that situation were to come about it would definitely polarise the opinions of human beings. Some human beings would be so fearful of 'intelligent machines' that they would ostracize and even lynch them - ironically creating a situation where the machines have to defend themselves and fight back against their creators (human beings actually creating the situation they most fear).

Personally though, I'd be on the side of standing up for intelligent machines, and for defending their rights as individuals and having their own freedom of self-determination. I try very hard to have the faith in humanity that I'm not alone in that opinion.
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Re: Robot Dilemmas Discussion

Postby LBD_Nytetrayn » Wed May 27, 2015 6:24 am

DoNotDelete wrote:
ReifuTD wrote:Robots That Believe Humanity Is Inferior

Can't remember any points in them Mega Man games that specifically had a race of robotic people trying to hunt down and kill humans. The best my knowledge is mostly robot on robot violence. But to my knowledge on the Mega Man games can be spotty. Although robots trying to end humanities become a trope.


That's... pretty much the entire basis of the Mega Man X series, though I'll admit they did an exceedingly poor job of actually depicting the human element in the conflict, if that's what you mean.

That said, Mega Man Zero 4 sort of has this, though by that point all the robots in Neo Arcadia are being directed by Dr. Weil, and in ZX it's a moot point...

--LBD "Nytetrayn"
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Re: Robot Dilemmas Discussion

Postby ReifuTD » Wed May 27, 2015 8:22 am

DoNotDelete wrote:You've brought a lot to the table all at once there - trying to respond to it is kind of daunting. Is there any particular topic you feel strongly about/want to discuss?


Yeah I think that maybe that's why it might have taken so long for someone to bite on this topic. But I was hoping that a big opening would had made it easier for people to jump in.

If I could think of anything new I might dreg up the old section individually.

DoNotDelete wrote:
ReifuTD wrote:Robots That Believe Humanity Is Inferior

Can't remember any points in them Mega Man games that specifically had a race of robotic people trying to hunt down and kill humans. The best my knowledge is mostly robot on robot violence. But to my knowledge on the Mega Man games can be spotty. Although robots trying to end humanities become a trope.

I personally find it interesting how many people in the real world are afraid of the 'robot apocalypse' - I've had many real-world discussions with people who are deathly afraid of machines ever gaining full sentience/sapience - as if at that point human beings are immediately doomed to being overrun by the 'evil machine overlords'.

That machines would immediately become hostile to their creators is probably as naive as believing they wouldn't, but to argue against ever giving machines sentience/sapience because they might become hostile is an argument I can't go along with.

I'm personally not afraid of machines gaining sentience/sapience - but I think that if that situation were to come about it would definitely polarise the opinions of human beings. Some human beings would be so fearful of 'intelligent machines' that they would ostracize and even lynch them - ironically creating a situation where the machines have to defend themselves and fight back against their creators (human beings actually creating the situation they most fear).

Personally though, I'd be on the side of standing up for intelligent machines, and for defending their rights as individuals and having their own freedom of self-determination. I try very hard to have the faith in humanity that I'm not alone in that opinion.


Personally I kind of have a hard time seeing a future with the classical artificial beings, robots like in Mega Man and Asimov. I think medical technology would evolve to the point pretty quickly where we can just simply print out a functional human before we can build a robot that thinks like a human. In the end the two wouldn't be much different, The artificial human would just be a robot made of flesh made of instead of metal.

Take Jurassic Park for example, in that movie they use some way of getting dinosaur DNA that would never work. I see a future were we can just simply design a dinosaur or any kind of animal and print them out. Maybe even design self sustaining DNA allowing them to breed.

My hope is that human could perfectly integrate with computer technology. Today we can read (Not very well) thoughts and images with just probes placed outside the head. Think what we can do years from now. We could make with organs meant to read and record thoughts. I don't think copying someone's thoughts patterns and burning that information into another body is immortality but it's at least a new form of lineage.*

My second biggest fear is humanity loosing what makes human fun like a sense of fun. I'm sure that will happen in some aspect but the laws of evolution gives me hope. With man the biggest factor on our evolution is man. Each culture has different values and would want a different type of human. Yes their will be fascist dictatorships that exist to breed emotionless humans. But we also have consumer culture that profit out of humanity being creative, ambitious and flawed. No one's going to flush that kind of money down the toilet. Just look at wasps, bees and ants depending on the species you could have big ambiguous colonies, to small nests of independent individuals that just simply live together, to rogues who live by themselves.

My biggest fear with robots is something like nanobots, A rogue colony of nanobots or artificial bacteria or virus could copy them selves endlessly. Then these are made by humans and it's not a stretch we could make counter nanobots or artificial bacteria or virus to defend against them.

ReifuTD wrote:Identity

Biggest last big thing he could think of is identity, lot of times in fiction of her characters who appear to be human but are actually robots but didn't know they were robots. Also the idea of people having hidden personalities programmed into them that activate without their knowledge.


*I'm coming back to the concept of identity. I bought up the idea new form of lineage being the ability to copy one's self in a new body and I make the argument that even if you copy your own body and burn a copy of your memory and thoughts to it isn't immorality. I seem to remember that kind of thing happening in the X series a lot with Sigma were I think is brain suppose to be some kind of AI cloud that keeps making a new body. Zero had died a few times but I'm not sure the specifics. Zero series, Zero has to fight his old body and I seem to remember an X clone. Then you have the Repliod general always getting cloned from the boss rush near the end of the X games.
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Re: Robot Dilemmas Discussion

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Wed May 27, 2015 8:27 am

I don't read nearly as much robot fiction at all, so I can't bring much to the table here. Megaman is primarily a game that uses flimsy excuses to get the player to "pew pew pew" through robot hordes. I find the times it touches on philosophy pretty terrible, to be honest.

That said the familiar relations are pretty buggy. For instance, Protoman is Megaman's brother, but Rush is his dog. There's not really a reason for this to be the case; they're all robots. But Rush is the dog, Auto is a helper, and the various Light-created Robot Masters are basically fodder; at least it seems so in most games and most media.

Identity - I think Identity is touched on in Protoman's case and definitely brought up in the comics.

Robots That Believe Humanity Is Inferior - This is basically the X series. King too believes humans are inferior, although he can't do much about it.

Robots Making and Programming Other the Robots - X series. Plus, Sigma reprograms other robots by infecting them int he X series. Also, I don't think King ever reprogrammed the robots himself; it was all a Wily plot after all.
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Re: Robot Dilemmas Discussion

Postby ReifuTD » Wed May 27, 2015 7:08 pm

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Robots Making and Programming Other the Robots - X series. Plus, Sigma reprograms other robots by infecting them int he X series. Also, I don't think King ever reprogrammed the robots himself; it was all a Wily plot after all.


Well true, but I'm pretty sure in most cases with Sigma It was done against their will as a form of mind control

With King and I say King because I'm pretty sure Wily was pretending not to be involved with King. He can't just hang around reprogramming King's troops for him if that's the case. That and I'm pretty sure most robots knowing who Dr. Wily is wouldn't let him tinker with their programming unless they are desperate like in MM9.

Anyway the King bots choose to be reprogrammed to be able to choose who they are with out being limited by such thing as serving humans before serving them selves. Or being able to hurt or kill a human to defend their ideals.
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Re: Robot Dilemmas Discussion

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Wed May 27, 2015 7:34 pm

ReifuTD wrote:
Gauntlet101010 wrote:Robots Making and Programming Other the Robots - X series. Plus, Sigma reprograms other robots by infecting them int he X series. Also, I don't think King ever reprogrammed the robots himself; it was all a Wily plot after all.


Well true, but I'm pretty sure in most cases with Sigma It was done against their will as a form of mind control

With King and I say King because I'm pretty sure Wily was pretending not to be involved with King. He can't just hang around reprogramming King's troops for him if that's the case. That and I'm pretty sure most robots knowing who Dr. Wily is wouldn't let him tinker with their programming unless they are desperate like in MM9.

Anyway the King bots choose to be reprogrammed to be able to choose who they are with out being limited by such thing as serving humans before serving them selves. Or being able to hurt or kill a human to defend their ideals.

Oh, I see. You see a scenario where King goes out an "recruits" other robots. I see it more like MM7 where Wily just gathers robots to fight alongside King or just makes them. We're not privy to exactly how Wily acquires his robots; I tend to think they're unwilling. Or maybe they were disposed of. I don't see why the King series would be different. King was made by Wily, why wouldn't Wily provide him with troops?

What's "mind control" when you're dealing with a robot? Well ... it's reprogramming, isn't it? It's not like Sigma's constantly looking over their shoulder telling them what to do. He's altered their perception, permanently it seems.
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Re: Robot Dilemmas Discussion

Postby Damo » Wed May 27, 2015 11:36 pm

Having Michael Bay direct your movie

By far the greatest dilemma a robot can ever face.
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Re: Robot Dilemmas Discussion

Postby DoNotDelete » Thu May 28, 2015 5:08 am

ReifuTD wrote:Personally I kind of have a hard time seeing a future with the classical artificial beings, robots like in Mega Man and Asimov. I think medical technology would evolve to the point pretty quickly where we can just simply print out a functional human before we can build a robot that thinks like a human. In the end the two wouldn't be much different, The artificial human would just be a robot made of flesh made of instead of metal.

Flesh bodies have limitations though - a robot's key 'selling point' over a human is that they can do things a human cannot - walk into a burning building, dive underwater to great depths that would crush a human body, walk into a gunfight without fear of injury, etc.

Also - as an errant thought - Asimov's 'three laws of robotics' are taken for granted/generally accepted as gospel by a lot of people, but they're hardly applicable to all robots in all situations; Robots built for war would need to be able to kill people. Robots built to handle police-type situations would need (in some instances) to be able to make decisions that let them take a shot at would-be criminals. Just a couple of examples.

ReifuTD wrote:My second biggest fear is humanity loosing what makes human fun like a sense of fun. I'm sure that will happen in some aspect but the laws of evolution gives me hope. With man the biggest factor on our evolution is man. Each culture has different values and would want a different type of human. Yes their will be fascist dictatorships that exist to breed emotionless humans. But we also have consumer culture that profit out of humanity being creative, ambitious and flawed. No one's going to flush that kind of money down the toilet. Just look at wasps, bees and ants depending on the species you could have big ambiguous colonies, to small nests of independent individuals that just simply live together, to rogues who live by themselves.

I'd argue that human evolution has for the most part been halted and that the next stage in human evolution can only come about via technology. As much as there will be humans who choose not to 'augment' themselves with technology, there will be humans who choose to integrate technology into themselves - perhaps opting for 'superior' synthetic eyes, internal organs, etc.

Over the fullness of time this may even get to the point where human beings completely give up on their natural bodies and choose a constructed body that may look very not-human, if that is their desire.

ReifuTD wrote:My biggest fear with robots is something like nanobots, A rogue colony of nanobots or artificial bacteria or virus could copy them selves endlessly. Then these are made by humans and it's not a stretch we could make counter nanobots or artificial bacteria or virus to defend against them.

I'd guess people would build limited lifespans or 'failsafes' into nanobots, but with the inevitable errors that arise via self-replication in huge numbers, an errant nanobot could easily go rogue and become problematic. I feel strongly that nanorobots are the future of medicine though - their benefits would massively outweigh potential risks.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:That said the familiar relations are pretty buggy. For instance, Protoman is Megaman's brother, but Rush is his dog. There's not really a reason for this to be the case; they're all robots. But Rush is the dog, Auto is a helper, and the various Light-created Robot Masters are basically fodder; at least it seems so in most games and most media

There's no real reason Rush shouldn't be as sophisticated/sapient as Rock, but it doesn't trouble me so much in this context. I suppose people would be as likely to build 'simulated pets' as they would 'simulated people'.

Of note: in the current Transformers: MTMTE story by James Roberts, 'Ravage' has the body of a canine/panther but is as vocal/sophisticated as his humanoid counterparts.
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Re: Robot Dilemmas Discussion

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Thu May 28, 2015 8:10 am

Ravage is pretty cool in IDW's Transformers and there's a bit of racism (roboticism?) where someone view him as inferior in that universe because he's a robot animal. "simulated pets" is probably what they're going for.

Asimov's three laws are buggy in the MM universe. I had a debate a long time ago whether they even exist in the canon. For Wily to use robots to take over the world rule #1 would, obviously, need to be deleted. Proto doesn't obey Light's command to let him fix him, so there goes the law against obeying humans and not letting yourself die. Bass also doesn't really obey Wily either. Plus, while you could argue MM has a justification in firing at Wily to protect greater humanity Bass sure doesn't. And then there's the ending to MMGB 2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVQ3xMKkR5E
MM clearly guns down Wily in cold blood. Didn't bug me as a kid, but I'm shocked that Capcom allowed this in retrospect. People get worked up over MM7, but this is way more clean cut.
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Re: Robot Dilemmas Discussion

Postby ReifuTD » Thu May 28, 2015 8:36 am

Gauntlet101010 wrote:
ReifuTD wrote:
Gauntlet101010 wrote:Robots Making and Programming Other the Robots - X series. Plus, Sigma reprograms other robots by infecting them int he X series. Also, I don't think King ever reprogrammed the robots himself; it was all a Wily plot after all.


Well true, but I'm pretty sure in most cases with Sigma It was done against their will as a form of mind control

With King and I say King because I'm pretty sure Wily was pretending not to be involved with King. He can't just hang around reprogramming King's troops for him if that's the case. That and I'm pretty sure most robots knowing who Dr. Wily is wouldn't let him tinker with their programming unless they are desperate like in MM9.

Anyway the King bots choose to be reprogrammed to be able to choose who they are with out being limited by such thing as serving humans before serving them selves. Or being able to hurt or kill a human to defend their ideals.

Oh, I see. You see a scenario where King goes out an "recruits" other robots. I see it more like MM7 where Wily just gathers robots to fight alongside King or just makes them. We're not privy to exactly how Wily acquires his robots; I tend to think they're unwilling. Or maybe they were disposed of. I don't see why the King series would be different. King was made by Wily, why wouldn't Wily provide him with troops?

What's "mind control" when you're dealing with a robot? Well ... it's reprogramming, isn't it? It's not like Sigma's constantly looking over their shoulder telling them what to do. He's altered their perception, permanently it seems.


Well... relooking though the King Number bots it does look like a few had been forced into working with him,

DoNotDelete wrote:
ReifuTD wrote:Personally I kind of have a hard time seeing a future with the classical artificial beings, robots like in Mega Man and Asimov. I think medical technology would evolve to the point pretty quickly where we can just simply print out a functional human before we can build a robot that thinks like a human. In the end the two wouldn't be much different, The artificial human would just be a robot made of flesh made of instead of metal.

Flesh bodies have limitations though - a robot's key 'selling point' over a human is that they can do things a human cannot - walk into a burning building, dive underwater to great depths that would crush a human body, walk into a gunfight without fear of injury, etc.

Also - as an errant thought - Asimov's 'three laws of robotics' are taken for granted/generally accepted as gospel by a lot of people, but they're hardly applicable to all robots in all situations; Robots built for war would need to be able to kill people. Robots built to handle police-type situations would need (in some instances) to be able to make decisions that let them take a shot at would-be criminals. Just a couple of examples.


Well I was saying it would be way easier to a reliable robot using organic computer like a brain So, I imagine the line between human and artificial intelligence blurred very quickly and oh you'd be shocked with organic material or what could be integrated into. Skin resistant to heat and flame, oxygen boosters in the blood to reduce the need to breathe. Might as well put an artificial brain in an octopus and have it do the those deep sea jobs. It doesn't matter what they are made from you could program an artificial being to walk into danger, reduced pain to a warning signal. Even at that some people just having a memory back like an AI black box up could scave the fear of death. As I pointed I just see this as an illusion of immortality. But the closest I think we could get.

DoNotDelete wrote:
ReifuTD wrote:My second biggest fear is humanity loosing what makes human fun like a sense of fun. I'm sure that will happen in some aspect but the laws of evolution gives me hope. With man the biggest factor on our evolution is man. Each culture has different values and would want a different type of human. Yes their will be fascist dictatorships that exist to breed emotionless humans. But we also have consumer culture that profit out of humanity being creative, ambitious and flawed. No one's going to flush that kind of money down the toilet. Just look at wasps, bees and ants depending on the species you could have big ambiguous colonies, to small nests of independent individuals that just simply live together, to rogues who live by themselves.

I'd argue that human evolution has for the most part been halted and that the next stage in human evolution can only come about via technology. As much as there will be humans who choose not to 'augment' themselves with technology, there will be humans who choose to integrate technology into themselves - perhaps opting for 'superior' synthetic eyes, internal organs, etc.

Over the fullness of time this may even get to the point where human beings completely give up on their natural bodies and choose a constructed body that may look very not-human, if that is their desire.


Oh, I full hearty believe this, A person could give themselves a body type, One that looks like an athro cat person with big ears and long tail or could make them selves look like drow. Women could choose to lay eggs instead of normal births. Live as any animal ever even some that haven't been invited yet. Might even become an inch high, live as a survivalist and make a tiny family. Possibilities are almost endless.

It will be the core cultures that decides the different direction artificial people go. Different life styles and attitudes affect what people want in a body. A career office worker in Japan would not have same type of body as a Japanese counter culture person. Although it maybe possible to have more then one body that can be controlled for people to live double lives.

I also have no doubt that people could come up with simulated societies. For example lets take Shinto Buddhism a large religion in Japan, A major part the belief is that energy can give things come to life. Positive makes things want to protect and watch over people well negative energy can spawn monsters. A bunch of who believe in Shintoism could go, "I want a world more governed by the rules Shinto. Lets make a place that does that." Then found a functioning city or land that the people live a Live Action Roleplay the simulates a normal life. But they have shrines ruled by artificial gods, Demons sneaking around harming and tricking people. Angry negative people who don't cleanse that energy away with prayer risk having their toaster coming alive and biting their hand off.
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Re: Robot Dilemmas Discussion

Postby DoNotDelete » Thu May 28, 2015 9:00 am

ReifuTD wrote:Well I was saying it would be way easier to a reliable robot using organic computer like a brain So, I imagine the line between human and artificial intelligence blurred very quickly and oh you'd be shocked with organic material or what could be integrated into. Skin resistant to heat and flame, oxygen boosters in the blood to reduce the need to breathe. Might as well put an artificial brain in an octopus and have it do the those deep sea jobs. It doesn't matter what they are made from you could program an artificial being to walk into danger, reduced pain to a warning signal. Even at that some people just having a memory back like an AI black box up could scave the fear of death. As I pointed I just see this as an illusion of immortality. But the closest I think we could get

I agree that if humans want to create robots that think (and even 'feel') like humans the best/quickest way of doing this is probably via replicating/copying/making an analogue of the human forebrain - this could be done physically or digitally, organically or synthetically. The materials used depend mostly on the robot's intended function. An organic pseudo-brain would require a nutrient delivery system (synthetic blood, organs, a way to process oxygen, etc.) whereas a digital or synthetic analogue may only require electricity/batteries.
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Re: Robot Dilemmas Discussion

Postby Sunwalker » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:02 pm

I can think about two more dilemmas.


Self-awareness

Determining whether a robot is conscious or not is the difference between a unconscious automaton and a sentient being.

Being self-aware is more than just having an internal image of itself, though it does involve this. You can open the task manager of your computer and see a lot of information about the system, which comes from several different hardware sensors. But this does not grant to the computer a consciousness. In order to be conscious it is necessary to be aware of its own existence, that is, to feel it, to have a mind. The dilemma here is how to determine that something can feel itself.

Even for human beings, the reason you are sure that you have a consciousness is because you can experience it first-hand. But even then, you are unable to prove beyond any doubt to another person that you have a mind. In the same way, you you also cannot prove beyond any doubt that other people are not some mindless zombie. That is because self-awareness is qualia: a subjective experience that can only be known by those who experience it.

It is qualia, for instance, how it feels to be happy, how a rose smells, how some color looks. Basically any thought, feeling, or sensorial input is qualia. The only way to fully know how all these stuff feels is to experience it. You cannot really explain to a person who has born blind how the color green, for example, is. You might say that it is the color of the leaves, but this person has never actually seen a leaf. You also could explain to this person all the concepts of optics and spectrometry, yet nothing of this can teach the mind how the color looks. The only way to know how a certain color is is to see it, that is, it is necessary a subjective experience.

You cannot know for sure that a machine is conscious or not because you cannot experience its consciousness. The same thing applies to people, but you assume that other people are conscious too because they are also humans beings. Still, consciousness is something that cannot be measured so you still cannot know for sure if a machine has it. Measuring the electrical brain impulses is not measuring the consciousness or any thought. The pattern of electrical impulses is, at most, just a representation of consciousness and thoughts, but not the consciousness and thoughts themselves; in the same way that a picture of you is not you, but a representation of you.

It is correct that it can be established some correlation between the brainwaves and certain types of thoughts, but there is the "correlation is not causation" concept. The electrical impulses of the brain might be the cause of consciousness and thoughts, but also it is possible that consciousness and thoughts cause the electrical impulses. It is not possible to devise an experiment to determine which scenario is correct, because you cannot measure exactly what goes inside of the mind of someone. Even if you do measure the brainwaves this isn't by itself a proof that a conscious mind exist.

If it is not possible to directly determine the existence of a conscious mind, you can at least looks for the consequences of its existence. Does some machine just imitate some human behavior, or does it actually have it? Some people joke saying that bots like Apple's Siri is actually alive, but in the end of the day it is just some programs processing data and giving an answer that looks human, but actually isn't. Humans can do much more that just process and analyse data, they are capable of free will and creativity.

Free will is the ability to chose between two different courses of action. Just processing data and choosing the most reasonable outcome is not free will, because the data processment s still bound to deterministic events. With free will you cannot necessarily determine the outcome of some event by knowing all the previous conditions, the individual can still choose to go one way or another. This also is not random event because of the choice factor. So I think that free will is a third type of event, apart from determinism and randomness.

Creativity is the process in which some new idea or concept is formed. This is not the same thing as the procedural generation made by a software, because the software is still using building blocks that already exist. It also is not the same thing than a program that can "learn", because ultimately all that it is doing is to register something from its surroundings that already exist. Creativity involves making something that didn't exist beforehand. I know that creative works are not necessarily 100% original, but they must contain some new element in order to be considered creative.

So if some machine exhibits things like free will and creativity, I think that one can reasonably postulate that it is conscious. Still, how those elements could be verified is a complicated matter.

There is also the question if it is possible to build something like that. It is possible that unique human attributes like consciousness, free will, and intelligence comes from a spiritual soul, and the brain is just the instrument that the soul acts upon. In this case, even if someone artificially builds an structure similar to the human brain, will it be self-aware? It might be that a new soul is created if certain conditions are meet, or maybe a truly sentient robot is impossible.

This leads us to the next dilemma...


Robots and spirituality

I am not aware of any story about robots involving an in-depth analysis their relationship with religion and spirituality, but I do not know many robot stories so I might be missing something. But I remember about a couple of stories that touched it, even if just slightly.

In the 80's Astro Boy anime, there is one episode in which Uran searches for information about various religious figures, and Atom says to her that the concept of a deity is foreign to robots. From this, it seems that robots in that universe are unable to grasp the idea of God, let alone to have any form of worship.

Another example is one of the endings of the Megaman X5 game. If I recall it correctly, one of the reploids states that X's recuperation was miraculous, to which another one replies that reploids are not allowed to believe in miracles. I do not remember the exact words, and it might be also that something was lost in translation (I would be glad if someone could get the original text and translate it). I suppose that in the MMX universe the only difference between a reploid mind and a human one, is that humans are capable of having faith while robots not.

In a broader sense, I presume that if robots does not have a soul then they are unable of any religious experience. The issue #13 of the Archie Mega Man comic does asked the question on whether robots have soul in its cover, but it has not addressed the question on the story itself. The Mega Man X games have the concept of "DNA soul", but as far I know its nature was not explained (it does not necessarily is a spiritual thing).

If robots are not capable of spirituality, then the closest thing might be a creator and creature relationship with the people who built them.
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Re: Robot Dilemmas Discussion

Postby ReifuTD » Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:32 am

I remember Battlestar a thing with robots and religion.
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Re: Robot Dilemmas Discussion

Postby lalalei2001 » Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:47 am

I read a really great book about sentient robotic life called Expiration Day. It was sort of an emergent AI thing and how robots and humans adapted to one another, and at the end of the book the main character picked the 'staff only' door, proving that she could think beyond what was programmed into her. The entire time I was reading it I was thinking "This book is so important."

Another thing I really liked was that the main character's father was a priest, and he was pro-sentient robotic life too, and argued for her sentience in court.
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