MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Mavrickindigo » Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:25 pm

Penguin God wrote:Why... why would you even assume that? What possible problem would there be from having all the MM2/3 Robot Masters that having half of them wouldn't also?

filling the comic with a million characters instead of half a million?
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Penguin God » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:01 pm

And you thought this whole issue was dedicated to making sure some Robot Masters don't show up for a couple issues? You realize that if that was a problem, they could just have the MM2 Robot Masters reactivated later, or not at all. It's a story that follows up on the conflicts of the series and sets up other conflicts, it would be just as well without Worlds Unite happening at all.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby DoNotDelete » Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:26 am

lalalei2001 wrote:I would like to see a 'good' copy or clone, though, as well as copies or clones who become their own person/robot, distinct form the original. There aren't many stories like that in fiction.

I've seen many stories about 'inverse clones' of Mega Man (Copy Mega Man). It'd be interesting to see how an 'inverse clone' of say, Bass would behave - and how he would view his original counterpart:

Spoiler: show
Would the fact that the original Bass is 'evil' shake Copy Bass' resolve - making him doubt his aversion toward harming others? Is it inevitable that all forms of Bass - original or copies - resort to becoming weapons of mass destruction?

It'd be an interesting turnabout of the 'Copy Mega Man' story.

I also had ideas about how Honey Woman/Ocean Man could be written into the story:

Spoiler: show
Wily tries to copy Hornet Man/Splash Woman at the same time - but wires get crossed in the copy machine and *pop* Honey Woman and Ocean Man come out the other side.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby lalalei2001 » Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:28 am

I've wondered about inverse copies of Bass (and Protoman) too! Dark Man from MM5 will be interesting to see in the comic. I hope.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby El Veinte » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:52 am

Or Ian just wrote the dialogue in a somewhat clumsy way that could be misinterpreted by some people. It's kind of ironic. By putting so much stock in the dialogue it seems like you're simultaneously putting too much faith and too little faith in the writing here. Too much faith - that thinking confusing dialogue is fully intentional and is meant to be followed exactly as written. And too little - that Ian would actually portray Light in a way vastly inconsistent with prior issues and everything we know about him outside the series. The exact right amount of faith would be seeing that the issue centres around the debate Light and MM have with the robots and deciding that the opening dialogue is just a little clumsy.


Maybe so. Your counter-analysis also picks and chooses. And the unfortunate thing about trying to guess what the author is trying to convey is that we are not mind readers.

Ian, quit lurking and give us some direction here.

These are flaws within the dialogue of the opening sequence. There's no reason to home in on the talk of "reprogramming" any more than there is of rebuilding or purging. None. It might have been written better, but that's not really the point of the issue. And that's the main problem with your lengthy analyses. Just based on the quotes your have provided yourself we can see the set up dialogue isn't literally accurate and can't be literally accurate. Since the dialogue can't be taken with literal accuracy it makes sense to just go with what seems to be the point of the issue. Otherwise you wind up with a conclusion that makes no sense.


The purging of Wily's coding I would say is the reprogramming. Trying to get out what is keeping them bad. It makes sense that Light would do that because of what he says about their programming being at fault. But at the same time it creates the problem that Quick Man's point about being himself is moot and why so many of the robots have doubt issues, which points to reprogramming being unable to solve everything or even being a problem itself. Which makes Light wrong about reprogramming being a pancea. But choosing to give up on that should say something about Light's mental state. It is undeniably inconsistent regardess, so either it expresses some inner change in him or it is entirely an out of character mome

Rebuilt to the extent that the MM3 masters were all disabled through battle and can well have broken components that needed rebuilding. But it does pose a question of where the bodies came from, because we never saw the old bodies be transported from space. We also never see Mega Man transport the MM2 masters. He looks at them in their jars and keeps moving. It looked like he moved on to the next battle immediately. When were they recovered from there? After Gamma blew the fortress apart? Did the explosions or fire damage the bodies then? But X's goons are fast on the scene, so how did they get any of the bodies past them? Did Blues sneak in and teleport them? Or did Light really have to rebuild a lot of these robots? If he did, how did he get the blueprints or Wily's bots? Specs on the IC chips maybe.

So, you agree that the situation you've put forth is absurd and that, in your interpretation, Light is a hypocrite. Since we know Light isn't supposed to be a hypocrite and since you agree the situation you put for is absurd, and we know what the issue is supposed to be about, I don't see why you insist your interpretation is actually correct.


Because I see Light in this comic not as an ideal archetype who is always right but as a human character who can have misguided ideas and shortcomings and emotional outbursts and moments of insecurity and doubt and is actually capable of showing development. Ergo I may think something he does in the comic is stupid but it doesn't mean I'm going to pretend it didn't happen. I will certainly say how dumb I think it is though.

I really just want to feel like I understand a character I'm reading. And there are so many things happening in 49 that don't stand up to any critical thought.

I want to understand why Light shirks away from debating once things gets going. Why he doesn't rebut anything when the robots speak of being useless. Why does he think threatening them is the best way? Why does he not object to them shutting down? Does he agree with them? Does he just not care enough to argue to convince them to save themselves? Did he think he expect that they just couldn't save them all going in and just cut his losses? I want to understand what he is thinking. And I certainly want to understand whether he reprogrammed these robots first as I find the first page and Mega Man indicate, or if he is waiting for the robot's own approval before reprogramming them, which goes against what he said before but is evidenced by the fact that he respects the robots' wishes.

The weirdest part about all of this is that Wily programed some of his robots to even consider such a thing.


Their personalities could come from some kind of generator algorithm or character creation program, rather than having an entire brain's worth of likes and dislikes coded in by hand. Could explain that kind of randomness that contradicts the core purpose.

Another possibility is that they start with a few key traits and by the robot learning things and having experiences it creates its own. A part of their identity should come from their memories either way.

I made a parallel with human beings because you're ascribing human considerations to a robot character


I honestly can't tell if the comic wants us to or not. They have these human like thoughts and emotions, but they are robots. If what Light said about responsibility is right, these robots have no free will and should just be reprogrammed, that will fix everything and cause their emotions the least stress. For Quick's stance to be accepted we need to attribute that sort of personal respect to their autonomy. But then shouldn't the symptoms of depression and uselessness some robots express be met with the same kind of care and concern. Shouldn't the choice for deactivation be taken seriously as well, with the weight of what it means to not know if you will ever wake up again. Not that robots should fear death, but ought they not relish life.

I think a compassionate man would say to Quick Man that yes, he may lose part of himself, but parts of him will also live on and you will always remember the person you were. Change is scary, but change is a part of existing. You are more than just a weapon. And you are going to do greater things than you have ever done. Will you take a chance on yourself, now, that you can be even more than you ever dreamed possible?

Or you know. Something.

Hm... it seems quite possible that the Robot Masters who were deactivated were done just so they wouldn't show up in Worlds Unite, which would be quite troubling if that is the case.


I had the same thought while reading Worlds Unite 3 today, where Time Man is like "Sonic Man is just too fast to hit!" Oh noes, if only we had a really fast guy on our team. But all the robots are beaten so quickly it hardly matters (rings for everyone), and didn't Sonic already best Quick Man in Worlds Collide anyway? Sonic and M'Egga have to succeed with the unity engines, so I agree that having 8 or 16 Wily bots wouldn't have changed things here, and yet if those deactivated 8 masters come back in a few issues to help the fight and turn the tide, then this will have just been a gimmick for the crossover.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:23 am

The purging of Wily's coding I would say is the reprogramming.
...

Rebuilt to the extent that the MM3 masters were all disabled through battle and can well have broken components that needed rebuilding. But it does pose a question of where the bodies came from, because we never saw the old bodies be transported from space. We also never see Mega Man transport the MM2 masters.


So, what? You're literal about the word reprogramming, but not about the word purging or rebuilding? That's inconsistency on your part. They also quite clearly explained where the 2s bodies come from; you're so set on fitting everything into your analysis of the setup dialogue that you've missed it.

Maybe so. Your counter-analysis also picks and chooses.


You've admitted that your analysis is absurd, however, while a standard reading / my reading is not absurd, entirely consistent, and required far less explanation. While I do pick-and-choose the end result makes sense and assumes a lot less. Occam's razor - a standard reading is correct while your alternative is not.

I really just want to feel like I understand a character I'm reading. And there are so many things happening in 49 that don't stand up to any critical thought.


Okay, but here's the problem: you've admitted your reading is absurd, but you attribute that to Ian and not to a misunderstanding on your own part. It's not that the issue doesn't stand up to critical thought, it's that you deny that you've interpreted some minor points incorrectly and have ballooned into absurdity because you can't get past that. We could debate further on Light and his character, but there's no point since you can't get past your flawed reading on what is a very small part of this issue.

Anyhow, unless there's more to add on misunderstanding Light's character I'm not going to pursue that further.

If what Light said about responsibility is right, these robots have no free will and should just be reprogrammed, that will fix everything and cause their emotions the least stress. For Quick's stance to be accepted we need to attribute that sort of personal respect to their autonomy. But then shouldn't the symptoms of depression and uselessness some robots express be met with the same kind of care and concern. Shouldn't the choice for deactivation be taken seriously as well, with the weight of what it means to not know if you will ever wake up again. Not that robots should fear death, but ought they not relish life.

I think a compassionate man would say to Quick Man that yes, he may lose part of himself, but parts of him will also live on and you will always remember the person you were. Change is scary, but change is a part of existing. You are more than just a weapon. And you are going to do greater things than you have ever done. Will you take a chance on yourself, now, that you can be even more than you ever dreamed possible?


Well, it's a conundrum. I've never found the "no free will" explanation on Classic series robots to be satisfying because they sure seem to demonstrate free will.

Maybe the Archie interpretation is that they have to obey their orders? That reading makes sense - Quick had to obey Wily's commands to hand over his IP chip, MM lost his entire personality after being reprogrammed, Needle complains about his mission and the rest have little choice but to do what they're told.

I also would have liked a counter argument from MM and Light that involved more than just "but you can be of use," although I don't think it would have made any difference in the 2's case. Quick was se on being himself. I'd have liked some rebuttal for the 3s, though.

In regards to the world, it's clear robots aren't regarded the same as humans. They had this one chance to join society and they refused. Light's under orders to deactivate them. There's a sense it's not quite right, but it's not that clear cut either.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby El Veinte » Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:16 am

Gauntlet101010 wrote:So, what? You're literal about the word reprogramming, but not about the word purging or rebuilding? That's inconsistency on your part. They also quite clearly explained where the 2s bodies come from; you're so set on fitting everything into your analysis of the setup dialogue that you've missed it.


The only liberty I am trying to take with interpreting "purged" is that the purging is of amoral ethics coding Wily put in and not all data like personality coding and memories and feelings. Purged of what is overtly bad. But I am also considering that it did not work out successfully.

Rebuilding by definition can apply to anything you might have to take apart some to put back together properly so I don't even see that as a stretch. However, about the bodies, I thought you were pointing out something else I hadn't considered that didn't make sense, that since unless the 2's were never properly repaired after Ra Moon their bodies shouldn't have had battle damage from Mega Man that would need apologizing for. I was trying to brainstorm some solutions from likely to least likely. Like maybe Quick Man had damage from his battle with Blues and Rock thought it was old? I'm still not sure how they got the bodies back through Mr. X's guards. Mega really shouldn't have gotten in before the guards came since that was happening "meanwhile" he was just getting home, but maybe Blues moved them out. He's good at stealth.

You've admitted that your analysis is absurd, however, while a standard reading / my reading is not absurd, entirely consistent, and required far less explanation. While I do pick-and-choose the end result makes sense and assumes a lot less. Occam's razor - a standard reading is correct while your alternative is not.


I do not acknowledge that your interpretation is standard, it is but one interpretation. I also think what these characters say and do is equally absurd under your interpretation, because unless I missed something we still have to omit several lines of dialogue merely to establish that Dr. Light only disabled the weapons and made no other changes to the robot masters' programs at onset.

And that does not explain Light's reasoning that these robots should consent to be reprogrammed if they do not have the X-factor to make decisions outside of their hard coding (and negate the desire for X at the same time). It easily explains Quick's rejection of new purpose, but does not explain why so many of the robots are capable of doing just that. It does not explain the motivations of the robot masters in this issue who say they don't have a practical function even after they are told they do and several of them already should have known that they do because they said it themselves in past issues.

I find that just as inexorable and unsatisfying as believing that they were reprogrammed, and that Light wasn't able to do it properly for some of them so Wily's coding is still inside or just the botched attempt left them a confused mess. That scenario can also explain Quick's rejection, but it still doesn't explain why Light suddenly thinks they should choose or why he says nothing to rebuff the robots' pessimistic unsupported claims.

Okay, but here's the problem: you've admitted your reading is absurd, but you attribute that to Ian and not to a misunderstanding on your own part. It's not that the issue doesn't stand up to critical thought, it's that you deny that you've interpreted some minor points incorrectly and have ballooned into absurdity because you can't get past that.


If we have to cross out speech bubbles to try and understand what's going on, I do think that falls within the author's domain. Seems a rather important detail if they were reprogrammed at onset or not, however it is mute because in the end we have this message about how "you can't save everyone and not everyone wants to be saved" when these robots could have been reprogrammed and saved. After establishing that robots can't help what they think because they just want to do what they are programmed to do. I mean, he couldn't save Wily because he his leg was trapped. I mean, his arm was free so he could have tried shooting the debris that he clearly saw coming towards Wily, or using Hard Knuckle to push Wily clear, but oops what I'm trying to say is that was a situation where he couldn't save someone (probably). Dr. Light agreeing to shut them off and saying it's out of his hands, no. He had other options there. He did have government orders that he needed to make those robots behave or shut them off, but it seems he chose not to make them behave when he could have.

So many other times Light just does what he thinks is best for the robot. Even in the X series. X5's Maverick Zero ending where he doesn't want X to struggle with painful memories so he removes everything about Zero from his head. Just does it. Or when he talks to Zero in the same game. Sure, maybe he really has no clue, not even a guess as to who could have made Zero. But just as likely he is lying about it to protect Zero from the burden, even though he clearly wants to know, because the truth might make him go maverick. So even with reploids Light is all about "papa knows best." Even when robots should be deciding for themselves he doesn't let them.

Did he ask Time Man and Oil Man if they wanted to be reprogrammed after Time Keeps Slipping? He knew the only way to get his Mega Man was to finish the update, he didn't ask Mega Man if he wanted it or not, Light had been ordering him to stop and Mega Man ignored his orders. Light had maintained in this series that what robots do is the result of their programming. To think they would change with all their programming intact seems like he's forgotten everything he said in the past. And even if he did try to reprogram them before turning them on in this issue, a short while later he just gives up.

It's not that Archie Light isn't already at times hypocritical, he did develop and sell army robots against his conscience just to make the money to do other projects. Then he makes a weapon one day after he tells an entire press conference that he's done building weapons. But in those cases I at least understood why he felt he had to contradict himself or sacrifice his principles, for a greater good. I don't see any greater good in letting an amazing piece of technology go to waste because it doesn't feel like working a specific job. Or assisting the suicide of robot people with the same feelings and intelligence as human beings because they are having identity crises.

I personally do not like the moral or the story or the one-sided debate in this issue, but I also think even objectively that it lacks consistent internal logic to the series and to the characters and to itself.

I do want to hear Ian's thoughts on it though, because I want to understand what he was trying to say with this story even though I probably won't agree with it. (Like the "Gamma just has a tiny head" thing.)

Maybe the Archie interpretation is that they have to obey their orders? That reading makes sense - Quick had to obey Wily's commands to hand over his IP chip, MM lost his entire personality after being reprogrammed, Needle complains about his mission and the rest have little choice but to do what they're told.


Makes some sense that they must follow orders, except if that is the only difference between robot masters and reploids that makes rogue independent robots like Blues essentially reploids already. Like the leap is just taking the obedience out, rather than putting something in. Like it's something that could be done really easily and in fact already has.

Robot masters also sometimes interpret their orders as they please, like the ending of the first arc where Wily tells them to destroy Mega Man and the robots tell him they already destroyed "a Mega Man". Like they knew what he meant, but chose to interpret it the wrong way regardless. I didn't like that part because it seemed like all Wily had to say was "Then do it again! Destroy THAT Mega Man right there!" and they would have had to comply, but I give Wily the benefit of the doubt to not be thinking clear when he was just involved in a bunch of vehicular explosions. And in the MM2 arc Wily says Quick Man was violating his orders by not going back to his own sector right away (perhaps Wily was too vague with the initial order), and Quick destroys Flash Man because Wily didn't say he couldn't, even though that was not part of the plan. So they're also innovative and can intentionally defy their orders with logic loopholes and wordplay.

In the end, and just because I want there to be and not because I think it's actually well thought out or orchestrated in the books, I circle back to the Light's car speech on the X-factor. I'm assuming there is some fine line Dr. Light sees with the technology or the way things are coded and emotions are emulated that must be improved upon, and that those sorts of incidents above are the results of coding errors creating unexpected variables in behavior, but it's not something Light or Wily meant to do at the time or that they totally understand yet. That all Light's robot brains, though believed to be safe, are really just experimental. And that when Light builds X is when he finally understands all those variables and uses them the way he wants to, so that free will is achieved consistently and purposefully without accident or error.

But I agree that the robot/reploid division is for all intents and purposes as imaginary here as it is in the games, because it's full of thinking feeling robots making their own decisions even after we're told they can't.

edits: I blundered the quote tags rather badly. Fixed now I hope.
Last edited by El Veinte on Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:06 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Penguin God » Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:34 am

As far as I've interpreted it, and I think the comic does the same, there are several ways in which Robot Masters are less "free" than Reploids, and several of those come up in this issue.
The first is obviously like you said, Robot Masters are inherently and automatically obedient to programmed orders. They are completely unable to disobey, even if they find loopholes, and their personalities can be overwritten. Outside of the Maverick Virus, Reploids always have the freedom of choice to do whatever they want. Meanwhile, Wily's Robot Masters have personalities but also direct orders that can be attributed to somebody else and not really a part of their consciousness.
The second is more complicated and ambiguous, but it refers to Rock's own decision to become Mega Man. He was able to surprise Dr. Light, but the choice was totally within Rock's personality and a logical conclusion for a young boy trying to help. A Robot Master has the ability to choose for themselves (to adapt), but they do not have the ability to choose themselves (to grow.) Quick Man would always be Quick Man, and nothing outside of reprogramming him outright would change that: Rock could never be persuaded to be evil, and when Wily's reprogramming turned Light's Robot Masters to his command they couldn't just abandon the good personalities they had before (causing a conflict that let Mega Man just pass them by.) Proto Man is brooding and full of independence but he's also possibly incapable of being otherwise. In that sense, robots are alive and can be considered people, but they are still constrained from having true free will in the same way that reploids do.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby El Veinte » Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:01 am

Rock volunteered to fight but it went against his peaceful natured programming, causing him a lot of mental problems and he ends up having that violent tantrum that could have physically harmed Light and Roll. He volunteered to contradict part of his own programming.

Blues decided not to be called Blues anymore. That's literally choosing himself.

I didn't even remember this before, but in the first arc Elec Man may have disobeyed an order from Wily about deploying robots because he thought he had a better idea about how to stop Mega Man.

Things get complicated pretty fast.

Question: We all saw how Quick Man feels about being a mail man. If Wily ordered him to become one we may assume he ought to follow the order, regardless of his personal feelings. What about if Wily ordered him to like being a mail man?
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:39 am

I do not acknowledge that your interpretation is standard, it is but one interpretation.

I know you don't. That's why a great deal of your logic falls flat. It's based on a faulty premise.

Mine is the standard interpretation because of the nature of the story. The issue is about MM and Light presenting the Wilybot's future to them. That's the main narrative.

Your presentation undercuts that narrative.

Therefore, your interpretation is an alternative one. And the one people have been talking about before you brought up your alternative view is the standard. It's a very straight forward narrative. The fact that you can't seem to see that is, well, your own problem.

I also think what these characters say and do is equally absurd under your interpretation, because unless I missed something we still have to omit several lines of dialogue merely to establish that Dr. Light only disabled the weapons and made no other changes to the robot masters' programs at onset.


You just have to allow for the author to fumble dialogue. That's about it. This is not absurd at all. You go on quite a bit, but it all boils down to ... well ... making a mistake and not really wanting to admit it.

Moving on to more relevant points,

And that does not explain Light's reasoning that these robots should consent to be reprogrammed if they do not have the X-factor to make decisions outside of their hard coding (and negate the desire for X at the same time). It easily explains Quick's rejection of new purpose, but does not explain why so many of the robots are capable of doing just that.
...
Makes some sense that they must follow orders, except if that is the only difference between robot masters and reploids that makes rogue independent robots like Blues essentially reploids already. Like the leap is just taking the obedience out, rather than putting something in. Like it's something that could be done really easily and in fact already has.
...
But I agree that the robot/reploid division is for all intents and purposes as imaginary here as it is in the games, because it's full of thinking feeling robots making their own decisions even after we're told they can't.


Yeah, pretty much. Wily's robots all think and feel, so Light respected their feelings.

It does not explain the motivations of the robot masters in this issue who say they don't have a practical function even after they are told they do and several of them already should have known that they do because they said it themselves in past issues.


And that's a legit flaw in the comic, one which many have repeated.

Did he ask Time Man and Oil Man if they wanted to be reprogrammed after Time Keeps Slipping? He knew the only way to get his Mega Man was to finish the update, he didn't ask Mega Man if he wanted it or not, Light had been ordering him to stop and Mega Man ignored his orders. Light had maintained in this series that what robots do is the result of their programming. To think they would change with all their programming intact seems like he's forgotten everything he said in the past. And even if he did try to reprogram them before turning them on in this issue, a short while later he just gives up.

So, you fault Light for restoring the programming on his own robots after Wily reprogrammed them. That's an interesting idea.

A pretty flawed idea, but interesting. If you reprogram a robot to destroy society, do you have to ask permission before restoring his personality to what it was before? On the surface it seems like a pretty clear-cut "no" and the alternative is destroying the robot, but it's interesting to consider if that makes Light a hypocrite.

It's not that Archie Light isn't already at times hypocritical, he did develop and sell army robots against his conscience just to make the money to do other projects.


Which is something admitted to in the main narrative. Unlike what you're doing.

Question: We all saw how Quick Man feels about being a mail man. If Wily ordered him to become one we may assume he ought to follow the order, regardless of his personal feelings. What about if Wily ordered him to like being a mail man?

I don't think that'd work. Wily had to overwrite a lot of MM's personality to get him to obey him and make him seem to like it. Which explains Quick's reaction to the idea of liking being Mailman.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Ian Flynn » Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:37 pm

El Veinte wrote:Rock volunteered to fight but it went against his peaceful natured programming, causing him a lot of mental problems and he ends up having that violent tantrum that could have physically harmed Light and Roll. He volunteered to contradict part of his own programming.

He was also programmed to help people. The only way he could help was to be weaponized and to fight. In that regard, he was fulfilling his programming. And, yes, it didn't process too well at the beginning. Mega Man adapted to the new parameters.

El Veinte wrote:Blues decided not to be called Blues anymore. That's literally choosing himself.

Blues also had no underlying programing. He had no instructions, no goals to achieve. He was simply activated to "be." This gives him almost total freedom of choice. He's an anomaly among the Robot Masters.

El Veinte wrote:I didn't even remember this before, but in the first arc Elec Man may have disobeyed an order from Wily about deploying robots because he thought he had a better idea about how to stop Mega Man.

He did - and then he went further, which still fell under the orders to "stop Mega Man."

El Veinte wrote:Question: We all saw how Quick Man feels about being a mail man. If Wily ordered him to become one we may assume he ought to follow the order, regardless of his personal feelings. What about if Wily ordered him to like being a mail man?

Then he wouldn't mind the new function, but he most likely resent the emotional override. He would like mail carrying, but he wouldn't like liking it.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby El Veinte » Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:25 pm

I was hoping you would talk about issue 49. What were the initial updates, why robots feel impractical, anything you think is "fumbled dialog" would be appreciated.

Ian Flynn wrote:He was also programmed to help people. The only way he could help was to be weaponized and to fight. In that regard, he was fulfilling his programming. And, yes, it didn't process too well at the beginning. Mega Man adapted to the new.


Is there a hierarchy to it then, where helping people comes first and doing no harm or protecting fellow robots comes second?

Blues also had no underlying programing. He had no instructions, no goals to achieve. He was simply activated to "be." This gives him almost total freedom of choice. He's an anomaly among the Robot Masters.


Is he different than a reploid?

He did - and then he went further, which still fell under the orders to "stop Mega Man."


He did deploy the robots, or he did ignore the order? If he can ignore the order to deploy the robots because he views that as secondary to the primary goal of stopping Mega Man, that confirms that they only need to follow an interpretation and can ignore the details. Decide what they think is important.

Then he wouldn't mind the new function, but he most likely resent the emotional override. He would like mail carrying, but he wouldn't like liking it.


Reprogramming through verbal orders. Are there parameters an order can't override?

Could Wily say "I order you never to have to follow my orders or anyone else's ever again" ?Would that make Quick as free as Blues?
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby Ian Flynn » Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:20 pm

El Veinte wrote:I was hoping you would talk about issue 49. What were the initial updates, why robots feel impractical, anything you think is "fumbled dialog" would be appreciated.

Everyone else has done a good job explaining it or rationalizing it. There really isn't anything I can add.

El Veinte wrote:Is there a hierarchy to it then, where helping people comes first and doing no harm or protecting fellow robots comes second?

As has been repeatedly shown in the comic, protecting humanity comes first.

El Veinte wrote:
Ian Flynn wrote:Blues also had no underlying programing. He had no instructions, no goals to achieve. He was simply activated to "be." This gives him almost total freedom of choice. He's an anomaly among the Robot Masters.

Is he different than a reploid?

Yes. Reploids are designed to be free willed, sapient beings. Many are built with a purpose, but they are free to choose who they are and what they do. Blues is more of a fluke, acting freely because he doesn't have set parameters. You can argue whether or not that amounts to the same thing, but the underlying source of the freedom is different.

El Veinte wrote:Reprogramming through verbal orders. Are there parameters an order can't override?

Could Wily say "I order you never to have to follow my orders or anyone else's ever again" ?Would that make Quick as free as Blues?

Verbal orders aren't "reprogramming." "Reprogramming" is literally going into the program and rewriting aspects of it. As for the order itself, it all depends on the logic of it and how starkly it conflicted with the base function.

In your example, Quick Man would probably just ignore the order since it's a logic loop. By following that order, he's already failing at "never follow my orders." But by ignoring all of Dr. Wily's order, he would ignore the order to ignore all orders - rending the order moot. The Robot Masters are binary enough for that to matter, but personable enough for Quick Man to roll his eyes and say "That's stupid."

When the Robot Masters were brought online in MM#49, their immediate orders - kill Mega Man - had been removed. But Quick Man's baseline function, his very existence, is to destroy Mega Man. It'd be like taking an automatic zamboni machine, remove its code to clean the ice, and leave it there. What's it going to do? Become a forklift?

That's what Dr. Light's choice was: to choose a new function. And half of the Robot Masters either couldn't or wouldn't adapt to that order due to their individual programing. Any other rational person would've stripped down their code, trashed the IC chips, and just plugged something new in. But Dr. Light is compassionate to a fault, he loves machines, and thus gave them the opportunity. That action is a fallacy, the illusion of choice given to those with the illusion of will, but it's who he is.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby ReifuTD » Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:20 pm

Ian Flynn wrote:That's what Dr. Light's choice was: to choose a new function. And half of the Robot Masters either couldn't or wouldn't adapt to that order due to their individual programing. Any other rational person would've stripped down their code, trashed the IC chips, and just plugged something new in. But Dr. Light is compassionate to a fault, he loves machines, and thus gave them the opportunity. That action is a fallacy, the illusion of choice given to those with the illusion of will, but it's who he is.


Unless you are telling me that Dr Light knew ahead of time witch robot was going to make witch choice, asking the robots what they want to do isn't pointless. I assume alot of vectors makes up what a RM range from prime ojectives to personally qurks like likes and disslikes, each rearanged, scaled and prioritized differently, maybe even a random number factor. How the two sets of RMs separated seem to proove that. Even if Light looked at their programing I could see it being hard to predict some outcomes.
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Re: MM#49 - Spoilers & Discussion

Postby El Veinte » Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:57 am

Thank you for replying. I'm going to press my luck again.

Why do Gemini and Needle who already expressed their desire to be miners and not soldiers not want to do that anymore?

If Light wasn't trying to build a robot as close to a human son with free will and sapience as he could, then what was he trying to make with Blues?

In your example, Quick Man would probably just ignore the order since it's a logic loop. By following that order, he's already failing at "never follow my orders."


I said "never to have to follow my orders" as in a create a standing order allowing the robot to choose to follow or not to follow any order he receives after that order. Order the robot to decide if any future order it receives is something it wants to do, and if it isn't, it can elect to reject it. Can one order a robot to be free?
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