Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Forum devoted to Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Universe and the entire Sonic line by Archie Comics.

Do you prefer Mainline Sonic to run on Internal or External logic?

Internal
17
77%
External
1
5%
Either one
4
18%
 
Total votes : 22

Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby The Swordsman » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:19 pm

So I was watching this video by Roger(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcN5r9LlFW4) where he notes that Sonic is moving away from running on internal logic, becoming external. Personally I prefer internal logic and think this is a bad move on SEGA's part but I was wondering what you guys think, should Sonic go back to running on internal logic or continue to go external?
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby ToaArcan » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:24 pm

Internal logic is so much better for storytelling, and external logic lends itself too much to weak plots and characterization.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby LordLaharlsVassal » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:26 pm

That video made me fear for the future of Sonic, more than any bad game ever could.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:53 pm

Well this video does reveal any ancient truths, but it does tell them in a very good way. I never heard about "internal/external logic" before.

Still, while I mostly agree with him, some examles are kinda iffy. I mean, Boom breaks a Fourth Wall, is that so surprising? Is every 4 wall breaking bad?

Or All Star Racing Transformed: is it bad that it doesn't make sense? Smash Bros doesn't make sense. Why would Mario ever hit Peach? How Little Mac can survive fighting with Bowser. It doesn't make sense, but it doesn't have to. It's spin-off tittle, not creating it's own world. Mushroom Kingdom isn't canonically existing in Metroid Universe. Sonic Riders was in cannon, had story, so it had sense. Just a game crossover can be forgiven for simplification like that.

Still, I think he's onto something when it comes to main games, like Lost World.

This guy caught my interest, I'll check his other videos.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby Penguin God » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:29 pm

This is taking some small jokes way too seriously, and then also not paying attention to what context the games do give for your actions. They just make their own logic for decisions and then berate that logic.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby The Swordsman » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:03 pm

MetalSkulkBane wrote:Well this video does reveal any ancient truths, but it does tell them in a very good way. I never heard about "internal/external logic" before.

Still, while I mostly agree with him, some examles are kinda iffy. I mean, Boom breaks a Fourth Wall, is that so surprising? Is every 4 wall breaking bad?

Or All Star Racing Transformed: is it bad that it doesn't make sense? Smash Bros doesn't make sense. Why would Mario ever hit Peach? How Little Mac can survive fighting with Bowser. It doesn't make sense, but it doesn't have to. It's spin-off tittle, not creating it's own world. Mushroom Kingdom isn't canonically existing in Metroid Universe. Sonic Riders was in cannon, had story, so it had sense. Just a game crossover can be forgiven for simplification like that.

Still, I think he's onto something when it comes to main games, like Lost World.

This guy caught my interest, I'll check his other videos.

This video was one he did for a different channel, his page is https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtLB9hShasiTdErpU_6uh8w, I recommend his Sonic Dissected series. Hope you enjoy. :)
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby FritzyBeat » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:06 pm

Wow, I gotta say, this was a really interesting video, and did a better job of putting into words why I am so much less interested in Sonic today than I was way back when o3o Like seriously *shot*

Also very interesting seeing the poll results. Keeping in mind that this is a forum for the comics, the overwhelming support for Internal Logic is to be expected, but I am curious as to what the majority of the sonic fanbase would say. And by fanbase, I mean literally anyone who on occasion picks up a sonic game.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby Mobotropolis » Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:26 pm

12 minutes? This looks like a job for the x2 button!

The Sonic Series was conceived from the beginning as a series that was supposed to capture the audience. Back in the 90s it was about him being cool and a rebel and a rock star because those were all the types of things that resonated with children in the 90s. In the 2000s they seemed to ride the anime hype-train and made more of an effort to tell a story about the trials of a free spirited boys-series protagonist. Now that we've reached the 2010s they seem to be banking on Internet Culture which makes sense since kids these days are immersed in it.

Sonic was always meant to represent " you " as the character the child player controls, but what defines " you " has changed over the decades. Even thought the circumstances of the storytelling are different the character is the same at his core. Sonic is supposed to represent what is cool and relevant to kids today. He is impatient. He is a snarker. He is haughty. He, despite his shortcomings, does have a good heart and wants to help those in need.

I always thought Knuckles was stupid.

Anyhow, I think this change of perception on the series is because we're all older and have begun to see things from another perspective. When we were 10 years old we only cared about our favorite game or show being released and had sky high hopes for the future because we didn't know how things really worked. Now that we're older and have a better understanding it might seem like things have changed ... but they really hasn't. The series has always been driven by external factors.

What do I think Sonic should be?

Both. I have seen good things come from both sides of the aisle and I think the series can handle them equally well.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:21 am

I check other vidoes that this guy makes. Overall he represents the same point of view I have (and probably most people on this forum), but like I said earlier, he's a bit orthodox.

"Boom is evil (cartoon too), Sonic Tumblar is evil, laughter is evil."

He is very civil and logical about it, but you can read this message between his lines. Saying "admittedly trying to be serious can be bad too" wouldn't hurt.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby Gonzo » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:37 pm

MetalSkulkBane wrote:"Boom is evil (cartoon too), Sonic Tumblar is evil, laughter is evil."

Doesn't sound like the kinda guy whose videos I wanna watch.

I like serious Sonic just fine, but implying that comedy has no place in a series about a blue hedgehog and his technicolour friends opposing a hammy scientist whose ideal empire takes the form of a theme park...

As for the internal vs. external thing, I think what should matter is consistency. If your story mostly runs on internal logic and suddenly has a bout of external (during a pivotal scene, that is, not simply an aside), it's gonna be jarring.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby Specs64z » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:37 pm

Huh. This really helps pinpoint what I dislike about post-Satbk stories. They don't take themselves seriously, therefore I can't take it seriously. Not bad in of itself, but every time I watch the moon explode, or station square get trashed, or even metal madness transformation I wish that those "high-stake" and "in-depth" stories would return. The characters have been broken down to stereotypes (well, they've always been stereotypes, but the previous ones were less annoying, a mon avis) and no longer have motivation or story. It can all be summed up in two words: a joke.
I mean, I don't play for the story. That's what RPGs are for. But dosn't mean it has to be poor and/or uninteresting.
Also, might wanna add a warning for cursing to the link.

He wasn't really bashing comedy in Sonic, but moreso the lack of depth. He's basically comparing how every Sonic character used to have a story, motivations, and (occassionally) development to how Sonic and crew have become talking, animated memes.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby MetalSkulkBane » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:35 am

Specs64z wrote:He wasn't really bashing comedy in Sonic, but moreso the lack of depth. He's basically comparing how every Sonic character used to have a story, motivations, and (occassionally) development to how Sonic and crew have become talking, animated memes.


Well, he's not bashing anyone (directly anyway), but he's not giving it any points either. Watch his video about Knuckles and you can notices that he really doesn't like Boom verion. No "admittedly he's funny" or just "I know some people like it, I don't", just "original Knuckles was cool, this one is dumb, so he suck".

I get his point of view, but I would feel more comfortable if he acknowledge points from other side.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby FritzyBeat » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:27 am

MetalSkulkBane wrote:
Specs64z wrote:He wasn't really bashing comedy in Sonic, but moreso the lack of depth. He's basically comparing how every Sonic character used to have a story, motivations, and (occassionally) development to how Sonic and crew have become talking, animated memes.


Well, he's not bashing anyone (directly anyway), but he's not giving it any points either. Watch his video about Knuckles and you can notices that he really doesn't like Boom verion. No "admittedly he's funny" or just "I know some people like it, I don't", just "original Knuckles was cool, this one is dumb, so he suck".

I get his point of view, but I would feel more comfortable if he acknowledge points from other side.

I agree with this.

While I can talk on and on about how much I dislike Sonic Boom, and while I really can't say there is anything about Knuckle's character in it that I like at all myself. It is important to at least acknowledge that not everyone is going to agree with you, and that it doesn't make them wrong just cause they think differently.

In other words, I'm always going to say that there's nothing about boom Knuckles I like, but that doesn't mean there isn't stuff about Boom Knuckles TO like c:
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby Azul » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:41 am

Sonic is the audience. Sonic is us? We are Sonic? Sonic is made for us? Sonic is made for Sonic? We're made for us? Sonic for all? All for one and one for all. Fullmetal Alchemist.

I will admit, the external logic has been working great for the series so far but I wouldn't mind a balance between the two.
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Re: Internal Logic vs External Logic in Mainline Sonic

Postby ToaArcan » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:31 am

Azul wrote:I will admit, the external logic has been working great for the series so far but I wouldn't mind a balance between the two.


Heavy YMMV on that one. I for one can't watch the Pontaff cutscenes outside of the second half of Lost World, and I gave up on Boom after four episodes, and I'll be honest, the references to other things from the SOnic franchise are what annoy me the most about the comics. Despite the fact that I love ClementJ642's videos, I had to stop watching his Colours LP because the cutscenes were just painful.
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