Unused and Scrapped Archie Sonic Comic Ideas

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Re: Unused and Scrapped Archie Sonic Comic Ideas

Postby DoNotDelete » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:32 am

GentlemanX wrote:Oh, we're discussing this here too? If anyone's interested I literally just talked about this.

I've thought about leaving many a time, but haven't. There's no doubt that my posting habits have changed quite a bit from those days though (there was a time I actually talked about individual issues).

I went ahead and read your post in the other thread but I guess I'll carry on the conversation here:

As time progresses there's an inevitability to people looking back and pulling apart older works/making comparisions against newer/better/more sophisticated works - also between writers and artists. This is true of all things. Human beings evolve through their art and literature - the sophistication of that art and literature becoming more noticable as time passes, even in something as apparently insignificant as a dinky comic book about a blue anthropomorphic hedgehog.

I've been with the Sonic Archie comics for a long time - I myself even recall actually liking a lot of the Pender's stories and even characters like Mina Mongoose - but I've since learned to view characters with more scrutiny and also the artwork back then was truthfully pretty bad/very slapdash in places.

I don't doubt that Ian's work will one day be looked back upon and judged harshly for his shortcomings - indeed there are many critics of his work who feel that way about him now - the ones that don't comment here. It is the nature of things. All artists/writers whose work is exposed to the public domain must face the possibility of being harshly criticised - either in the here and now or in hindsight.

Coming to a forum with a lot of people who 'have high standards' encourages other people to view the discussed material with a more keen eye - and other people's opinions and observations help us see things in the work that we wouldn't necessarily immediately identify ourselves. Isn't that better than everyone being unduly congratulatory/offering up high praise for what is actually only mediocre work? Should we ban everyone who actually has the insight to offer up reasonable critique just to massage the writer's/artist's ego?

As a designer/artist/writer myself I feel it is my responsibility to critique other people's work - my critique reflects the standards I hold myself to as much as I hold someone else to. Critique shows that somebody cares enough about the work to make a truthful observation and not just give somebody an empty/undeserved congratulatory gesture.

Sometimes my critique can be a little vitriolic but I never intend to cause the person I am critiquing harm or emotional distress - and I certainly never want the person I am critiquing to stop doing what they love. That someone chooses to become a critic does not make them a 'bad person' - not all of them are out to further their own ego by treading all over other people's creative efforts.

Of course how much credibility/importance they assign to the critique is entirely up to the person being critiqued; They can dismiss it completely; They can pick and choose what insights they take away; They can take it completely to heart. Ideally the middle option is the better one, but at the end of the day the writer/artist has to follow their own heart and create what they want to. I think Ian is smart enough to know this.
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Re: Unused and Scrapped Archie Sonic Comic Ideas

Postby GentlemanX » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:14 pm

I absolutely agree with you, time allows new opinions to surface and for people's own views to change. "Is the new thing better than the old thing" is a topic that is destined for all subjects that undergo any degree of change.

I also want to make sure I note that I don't have any problem with people who think the new is better than the old. They are completely justified in having that opinion because it is their own view and no one can take that away. Discussion is always used to expand that view, provide additional reasoning as to why they have come to that conclusion, but in the end how they feel is how they feel and no one else can "correct" their thoughts.

The issue I'm presenting is this:
DoNotDelete wrote:As a designer/artist/writer myself I feel it is my responsibility to critique other people's work - my critique reflects the standards I hold myself to as much as I hold someone else to. Critique shows that somebody cares enough about the work to make a truthful observation and not just give somebody an empty/undeserved congratulatory gesture.
Isn't that better than everyone being unduly congratulatory/offering up high praise for what is actually only mediocre work? Should we ban everyone who actually has the insight to offer up reasonable critique just to massage the writer's/artist's ego?
...
I don't doubt that Ian's work will one day be looked back upon and judged harshly for his shortcomings - indeed there are many critics of his work who feel that way about him now - the ones that don't comment here.

As others in both threads have noted, most of the people who negatively critique what is currently in the book don't post here. There have to be reasons for that, which I talk about a few for me personally in my other post. That's the wedge that Bumbleking is experiencing with some users now, that people on both sides are somewhat upset because there is more complex and controversial opinions being thrown about and both sides are looking for that "mutual appreciation" that occurred in the past. The people who like the way things are going now are irritated by people that are insisting there are problems with it, the people who are finding problems with it now are irritated by people that insist the book is better now. It's that mutual irritation that causes schisms like this and what I wanted to address.

Ideally, I just want the community to have thicker skin on all sides. I want people on both sides of the fence to enjoy posting here, the community should be big enough where people of all opinions can find some mutual feelings while also experience new and different points of view. A community where "I like SatAM", "I like the old Archie Sonic", "I like AOSTH", "I like the reboot", "I like Sonic X", "I like Sonic Boom", "I like the old games", "I like the new games", etc. etc. were all treated about the same and all of these views were respected by the community. If that level of mutual respect were more felt, with less vitriol for opposing opinions being key, I think everyone would enjoy posting on Bumbleking more and you'd have more of the fun atmosphere of before.

*puts soapbox away* That also means trying to make peace on the internet though, which I know is very hard to do.
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Re: Unused and Scrapped Archie Sonic Comic Ideas

Postby BlazeHeatnix » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:34 pm

What sucks more than anything is that Sonic is literally the only series I can think of that experiences this kind of phenomenon, because of how the quality of both the games and comics (even StC) are so infuriatingly inconsistent. Think of how many times this has happened:

"Adventure 1&2 are the best Sonic games ever!" After Sonic Colors: "Lmao what were we thinking right?"
"Sonic's redesign is fine, you guys are babies." After Generations: "Bring Classic Sonic back!"
"Colors has the best writing Sonic's ever had!" 3 years later: "They need new writers, this makes me cringe!"
"The comics are so much more interesting than the games! I love how evil Eggman is!" Post-reboot: "The games have much better characterization, this is better!"

I know it seems like a harsh reality to look back on something you used to like and being forced to acknowledge its flaws, but it's not something I think ANYBODY actually enjoys doing. (apart from the cynical) And the thing is, this happens with all media that survives a long time, but there's typically a huge amount of time before people start looking back on it with a critical eye. Somewhere around 20 years, and it's a very gradual transition from there. With Sonic, it takes half that time and the change in tastes and attitudes is almost instant. It's annoying and it hurts, because you get judged as having low standards or poor tastes when only a couple of years ago, that wasn't the case. So now you feel like if you want to enjoy the things you enjoy, it has to be in a dark corner of the room where nobody can ever know, lest you become an outcast of the community.

I'm willing to look past any flaws Sonic has, because I know it's not a Magnum Opus. As long as I can tell there's a lot of thought and heart put into it, and it still gives me that warm feeling of childlike joy inside, that's all I care about. To me, that's what Sonic is all about. I got that from the Adventure games, and that's why I still enjoy them, despite them having an almost innumerable about of issues. And I got that from the old continuity too because of all the potential Ian was bringing out, but I just don't feel it in the new one because it's played so straight to the games and any time there's anything new being added, it's safe so that it can "fit" and be "consistent". If I wanted consistency, there's no way in @#$% I'd turn to Sonic.

Rant over. I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say, but hopefully it makes sense to someone.
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Re: Unused and Scrapped Archie Sonic Comic Ideas

Postby FritzyBeat » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:53 am

To be fair, the Legend of Zelda fanbase goes through the same thing all the time ;P
Only difference being they tend to dislike half the stuff upon release, and then suddenly really like it sometime later *cough Majora's Mask cough Wind Waker cough*

but at least they eventually arrive at the general conclusion that pretty much all the games are great in their own way X3
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Re: Unused and Scrapped Archie Sonic Comic Ideas

Postby DC » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:11 am

Penguin God wrote:King Shadow and Sally having children is...easily the worst possible idea you could do with that. Good lord. And then kill off Wynmacher to get Locke and Lara-Le back together is destroying the one unintentionally interesting and complicated relationship he ever wrote. I know that talking about how bad that writer can be gets tiring after a while, but I swear it's like he tries to think up new lows to lower himself to.


I agree with both of those. On first point: Sonic and Sally(that is all I will say). The way I would have done things with Locke and Lara-Le is that
Spoiler: show
they would have never gotten divorced in the first place if they are introduced, and their relationship would have been better/healthier.


I am one of those fans that, even though I liked the comic book before, I had problems with it. While there are same things that I kind of like or ok with in the reboot there are other things that have changed that I don't like. It is a mixed bag for me, and not enough to get me to buy the comic book again.
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Re: Unused and Scrapped Archie Sonic Comic Ideas

Postby Meliden » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:42 am

Having Locke and Lara-le in a healthy relationship would have been just as bad given the actions that made her walk in the first place. She was totally justified for that.
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Re: Unused and Scrapped Archie Sonic Comic Ideas

Postby Mobotropolis » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:06 pm

I'm fine with Lara-Le divorcing Locke. In fact, her epiphany that Locke and the rest of the Brotherhood was crazy and she had to try and save her son from them was one of the reasons why she was my favorite mother. You don't just keep staring crazy in the face and say " this is fine ".

I'm not fine with Lara-Le taking Locke back after promising to do better on the second one. It doesn't work that way. I'm also not fine with introducing Wynn into the picture just to kill him off after building his relationship with Lara. Wynn did nothing wrong -- besides marry Lara.

That might've been it.
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Re: Unused and Scrapped Archie Sonic Comic Ideas

Postby FritzyBeat » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:12 pm

Mobotropolis wrote:I'm fine with Lara-Le divorcing Locke. In fact, her epiphany that Locke and the rest of the Brotherhood was crazy and she had to try and save her son from them was one of the reasons why she was my favorite mother. You don't just keep staring crazy in the face and say " this is fine ".

I'm not fine with Lara-Le taking Locke back after promising to do better on the second one. It doesn't work that way. I'm also not fine with introducing Wynn into the picture just to kill him off after building his relationship with Lara. Wynn did nothing wrong -- besides marry Lara.

That might've been it.

Wyn was never killed off though, he was always around till the end of the old continuity. In fact, he seemed like a pretty good father, taking care of his wife and Kneecaps of course (though, he did seem a bit wishy-washy when Knux returned from the dead and he started getting all worship-y at him ;P).

But yeah, it was Locke who was killed off in the Enerjac Returns arc, Wyn never died :P
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Re: Unused and Scrapped Archie Sonic Comic Ideas

Postby Meliden » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:18 pm

They're talking about Penders' original plan to kill Wynn off and get Locke and Lara-Le back together.
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Re: Unused and Scrapped Archie Sonic Comic Ideas

Postby FritzyBeat » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:20 pm

Meliden wrote:They're talking about Penders' original plan to kill Wynn off and get Locke and Lara-Le back together.

OOOOOOHHHHHH~ I see, I assumed we were talking about stuff that actually happened in the comic XP (for a moment I forgot what thread topic I was in XD)

But yeah, as far as Penders' original plan goes, it's kinda pointless, which is probably why it never happened ;P
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Re: Unused and Scrapped Archie Sonic Comic Ideas

Postby linebyline » Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:50 pm

As much as most of M25YL ranged from bad to not-great, I really liked Father's Day. It was flawed, but Locke realizing belatedly that he'd done wrong by Lara-Le and apologizing for it was something I really appreciated.

Of course when I initially read that, I didn't know anything about the circumstances of their divorce, and I figured "Soul Touch" was just some sappy Echidna name for marriage, not the plot device it actually was.

Even so, I think Locke admitting his mistakes was kind of touching, and having them reconcile in the present day would really undermine that for no good reason. I have a hard enough time with Enerjak: Reborn, but at least there was a good reason behind that one.

Also, M25YL had Lara-Le and Wyn together as a couple, considering moving to Albion. Wasn't Penders sort of a stickler for M25YL being the canon future, even if he could never admit it at the time due to Sega mandates? Seems like killing Wynmacher in the present day would be a pretty big contradiction.
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Re: Unused and Scrapped Archie Sonic Comic Ideas

Postby Mobotropolis » Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:16 pm

Father's Day was pretty close to what I actually wanted for XYL, but that was unfortunately more of a one-off story than the norm. I wanted XYL to serve as more of an epilogue for the characters around today and maybe as a place to resolve some plot points. We never really got that in either version of that future. The former was the long road to nowhere and the latter focused a bit too much on the kids.

Ken's full vision for the XYL future was never realized. I think he said somewhere originally that Julie-Su was supposed to have two kids and Lara-Su was the first, for example. It may be that a bunch of the stuff he planned got shot down so he had to take the story in a different direction.

It could also be some truth to the canon and that Ken intended on having the future changed like it actually did, anyway. The what happens in the present wouldn't really matter and can be hand-waved away as a distortion or something.
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Re: Unused and Scrapped Archie Sonic Comic Ideas

Postby Penguin God » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:49 am

I made this mistake too at first, but the Wyn dying plotline was Bollers, not Penders.
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Re: Unused and Scrapped Archie Sonic Comic Ideas

Postby DC » Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:51 am

Meliden wrote:Having Locke and Lara-le in a healthy relationship would have been just as bad given the actions that made her walk in the first place. She was totally justified for that.


I understand totally. I should have made it clear that
Spoiler: show
I would never have Locke make those mistakes in the first place.
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Re: Unused and Scrapped Archie Sonic Comic Ideas

Postby Meliden » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:52 am

Spoiler: show
But that would kill the storytelling dead. Say what you want about Penders having Locke doing these actions and being portrayed as unequivocally good being dumb, but it was a boon for Lara-Le because she was able to have a character outside of doting love interest/spouse because of it.
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