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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - LHT cont'd - Poll

Postby FritzyBeat » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:03 pm

These poll numbers are starting to look like the UK election results this year ;P
*shot*
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - LHT cont'd - Poll

Postby GentlemanX » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:57 pm

Oh, hi topic.

So yeah, just noticed this. I won't add to the first prompt, you guys covered everything *hearty laughter*, but since I just voted on the second one, I'd like to say quickly that I'd prefer to use LHT as a basis or rough guide of stuff to do, but I also don't think we should chain ourselves to it either. I agree with Spin that LHT will make ASO more than just another fan comic and also that test stories are a good idea, with the already started Endangered Species retelling as a great first effort. I for example would love to work as a writer or editor for the project but I don't have any comics of my own to put up as a portfolio (I can't draw). I'd love to be assigned a test story of some kind to show what I could do and/or make it clear if I should focus more as an editor than a writer. Back to the first point, I do think LHT should be flexible toward our own goals though. Following things to the letter could become hard to do considering Ian had two books published on a monthly basis to work with while we aren't even sure if we could get one out a quarter. I think it'd be best to use LHT as a road map that we get to as we get our footing and how we want to see our work progress.

As for current discussions, I think we should work independently from other groups, while certainly allowing others to come on board if we're interested. I agree with everything KKM said, we need to be able to act independently with a solid vision that we're producing. If we're creating material people want to join, they'll work with us. Trying to connect with other, pre-established groups will only create more conversing and back and forth rather than trying to get a specific product out.

I'll talk about the previous arcs when the next prompt discussion opens, but while I'd prefer specifics like following LHT and re-writing some of the edited arcs, I'm open to writing and/or editing whatever. This is a group effort and I don't want to disrupt something if the majority disagrees with me. So long as I feel like I'm contributing I want to be part of the project.
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - The Last Few Arcs

Postby SimonSays » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:20 pm

I apologize up front about the radio silence this past week. First week of new school semester, things have been busy and I haven't had time to post. Sorry about that. :/

So as of today, here are the results of the poll:

Do you want Archie Sonic: Online to wait until Lost Hedgehog Tales comes out?

    Yes, but only for the option to follow those ideas if we want. -- 8 votes (38%)
    Yes, and stick to it as closely as possible. -- 7 votes (33%)
    No, start now with fan-original content. -- 6 votes (29%)

It's a mostly even split for each choice, but 2/3 of the group definitely want to wait for LHT.

To be honest, I'm not really sure where to go from here. I wonder if maybe it would be a good idea to group up with like-minded people and plan on what you want to do. Even if you want to follow LHT, you could start making practice shorts like GentlemanX suggested. Maybe flashback stories that are only 5 - 10 pages long that cover an event or character in the comic's past from an angle that is new to the audience? Something in the style of the new Origins stories? I dunno! But I'm okay with multiple groups using this thread to get themselves organized.

Maybe a better next step would be to take stock of who those 21 people who voted are? Like, we have 7 people who want to stick to LHT as close as possible, who are they, are they all writers, etc? I'd like to keep going with the weekly discussion topics because I think they're worth talking about, but would making a list of people available first be more helpful? I've been hesitant to do that too early because I expect many people who are available/enthusiastic now may not be a month/several months from now.

Idk, what are some of your ideas?
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - The Last Few Arcs

Postby QuantamEdge » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:02 pm

I like your idea of making little flashback stories. It could really help get writers, artists, etc, prepared for the big deal. Would it be re-writing older content, or making all new stuff though?

Also, I voted on sticking closely as possible to LHT in case you want to know who voted what.
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - The Last Few Arcs

Postby GentlemanX » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:07 pm

I'm certainly on board, though as said I can't draw and am not exactly sure what I should be doing since I've not written for a comic before, hence the practice story angle. I was planning on researching that if Ian had talked about it or if I can find something about that elsewhere, I know I should be paying attention to layout and such. I had already thought up a plot, a flashback story where RoboKnuckles attacks New Mobotropolis and the Freedom Fighters and Chaotix stop him, similar to FCBD 2007, just as a way of kind of getting my bearings. I'm certainly flexible about length of the story depending on who wanted to be in on the test run; whether I have an editor look over the work and how much whoever wanted to pencil it wanted to draw.

I'll definitely post about this week's question later, I want to take a look at the issues again because I've thought about this once more or less since the issues came out. But yeah, really would love to hear others' opinions on everything you mentioned SimonSays.
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - The Last Few Arcs

Postby QuantamEdge » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:19 pm

GentlemanX wrote:I'm certainly on board, though as said I can't draw and am not exactly sure what I should be doing since I've not written for a comic before, hence the practice story angle. I was planning on researching that if Ian had talked about it or if I can find something about that elsewhere, I know I should be paying attention to layout and such. I had already thought up a plot, a flashback story where RoboKnuckles attacks New Mobotropolis and the Freedom Fighters and Chaotix stop him, similar to FCBD 2007, just as a way of kind of getting my bearings. I'm certainly flexible about length of the story depending on who wanted to be in on the test run; whether I have an editor look over the work and how much whoever wanted to pencil it wanted to draw.

I'll definitely post about this week's question later, I want to take a look at the issues again because I've thought about this once more or less since the issues came out. But yeah, really would love to hear others' opinions on everything you mentioned SimonSays.

I'm basically in the same position as you with the only difference being I haven't got any test story ideas.

As for the big question this week, I'd like that we remake the last few arcs so audiences can get that feeling of "Oh, so that was supposed to happen instead of that". It would provide some interesting comparisons and give us all a feeling of closure considering what went down two years back.
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - The Last Few Arcs

Postby SimonSays » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:55 pm

Well, Ian still has some samples of the comic scripts on this board here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=686

You can also look up other examples of script formatting, but they're mostly the same. As long as they're legible and easy to understand, that's what matters most. If you're not sure how much you can fit to a page, just pull out one of your own comic issues, and take a look at how much they manage to fit per page. Usually 6 panels or less for the Sonic comics. Frequently as little as 4. One of the problems with Endangered Species was trying to get everything to fit-- I remember asking TSE permission to move some lines around to keep things tidy.

Maybe a good practice exercise would be to try to work backwards and turn a finished comic page into a page of script, in as concise a way as possible. In addition to writing your own stuff if you have it, just to get a handle on format and the flow of each page.

Examples from StH 277:

Spoiler: show
PAGE TWO

Panel 1: Rotor and Sonic fight off more Holoska mooks, confident as they're having an easy time winning. Sonic trips one while Rotor wrestles a gun away from a second. They banter back and forth as Sonic makes lousy puns.
    ROTOR: Really? Don't tell me you're proud of that one.

    SONIC: Eh, I'm cold and I used up all my ice-related puns on the way here.
Etc, etc.

Might give a good idea of how much space something takes up, and how to write in a rhythm such that each page is a contained idea in itself. Like how

Spoiler: show
Page 14 of StH 277, it starts with Cubot introducing an idea of what to do next. This idea is explored throughout the page, but in the last panel, Cubot introduces the subject of the next scene, finding Metal Sonic.
Page 15 starts with the beginning of Eggman's next action: Go rescue Metal. This is what Eggman works on for the rest of the page. The last panel, Eggman exits the scene to introduce the next action.
Page 16, Eggman finds himself in space, explores space, gets attacked by the monster, who is the major subject of the next page.

And so it continues with that "introduce the page's idea, do stuff related to that, close with a transition into the next idea/scene." Most superhero comics do this, give you a small cliffhanger in every last panel so that you have a reason to keep turning the page. I'm looking at We Are Robin #2, and even when the character is in the same room for 4 pages having the same conversation with one other guy, it's split into the "who are you" page, the "where are my friends" page, the "what am I here for" page, and the "what should I do now" page.

It comes naturally to most writers without them really even thinking about it, but it's good to recognize what it is that you're doing that's working. The best way to learn is simply to pay attention to what you've got already that's successful, like the comics themselves.

I wonder if it would be good to have another thread for people seeking critiques, whether it's scripts or art or whatnot.

Anyway, I'd definitely be pumped to see a story with RoboKnuckles and the Chaotix. That sounds like fun.

The smaller stories could be whatever you wanted them to be. I mean, it's probably best not to do major retcons if the goal is to have them be a part of a continuation. But otherwise, whatever would be fine. Like, I'd be into a story about, say, what Jules was doing and feeling during the year Sonic was in space. Or maybe write a story from Mina's point of view from when her band went on tour around the world. Or something about Remington or one of the Guardians. Or do a continuation of one of the ATAP stories that are already canon, like Rush or Black Knight. It shouldn't be earth shattering if it wants to keep off the toes of LHT. Besides that though, go wild. *shrug*
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - The Last Few Arcs

Postby The Shadow Imperator » Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:08 pm

I have experience in writing, editing, and absorbing obscure bits of canon to regurgitate at appropriate moments. I also have the ability to draw and ink but I'd prefer that as a last resort.

Some short story ideas:

-Remington recalling his past
-Spectre's origin
-Scourge's battle with O'Nux
-Forgotten War montage
-Hope joining G.U.N.
-Feist reorganizing the Special Zone
-Monkey Khan dealing with the new Raiju D.E.L.
-The Brotherhood's last stand and capture by Finitevus
-Predator Hawk's escape from the Armada
-Remington and the new E.S.T. battle a discarded Eggman robot in the Albion ruins
-Dr. Nega's first confrontation with the Zone Cops
-Dark Enerjak's defeat of Sonic
-Rob escaping Mercia with his family (only if we decide to keep Chaotix Quest fully canon)
-Writing and redrawing the non-canon Sonic Chronicles adaption
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - The Last Few Arcs

Postby FritzyBeat » Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:38 pm

As I mentioned, I am still totally down for drawing off panels for you guys =) I can write them too if you guys wish, but I'm down with drawing other people's Off panel scripts too OUO Whether or not I am available for main comic stories is up in the air, but for now, I can at least say that off-panels are a certainty as far as availability goes.

That being said, I voted sticking to LHT, but since I'm just putting my name in for such a small thing, i dunno if my opinion holds much sway XD

(I AM a major in creative writing at University, but I'd much rather not be a writer for this, I have too much of my own stuff, and school to focus my writing on XD Besides, I like drawing things I didn't write~)
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - The Last Few Arcs

Postby GentlemanX » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:07 pm

Thanks for link and all your other advice SimonSays, will comb over all that when I get to writing. Glad to see it's more or less script format though, I had been thinking it might be closer to a page breakdown. That certainly makes me more comfortable.

Anyway, now for the topic of the week, the last few arcs. In looking over my issues, I decided to just focus on what I call "The Mecha Sally Saga" or STH 231-247 and SU 33-50, I think we all can agree everything before that, and as I'll get into some of the contents of this itself, are fine as is. So I'll break down my thoughts on what I'd like to do with this arc in specific story related bits.

SU 33-40: The Babylon Rising and Scrambled Arcs
I'll make this quick since they're only getting mentioned because they're part of my Mecha Sally Saga. I see no reason to touch this material, everything appears to be as was intended.

STH 231-236: The Mecha Sally Arc
Again, nothing I really want to do to these stories, most of these have become some of my favorite issues. The one exception would be 236: "Cry Freedom", which I think serves as both a great ending point for original comic material while also a great starting point for the new status quo the comic was trying to begin. Depending on what we do with the next Arc I talk about, more or less reproducing 236 point for point with new, fanmade artwork could serve as a good starting issue for us. We can't put the actual 236 online given it belongs to Archie, but putting up a redrawn version should be fine.

STH 237-241, SU 41-44: The Secret Freedom Fighters Arc
This is the first arc I would consider re-doing, and it's largely because of LHT. There's been a strong indication that STH 237/238: "Loyalty" was rewritten to remove Hershey from the story. If this is the case and Ian considered adding her to The Secret Freedom Fighters, it may significantly alter some or all of these stories. I personally also found the version of "Loyalty" that hit print lacking, and it would be the first story I would want to rewrite on a basis for quality reasons. In addition, 241 also likely saw edits, as the original story and solicit for "Blast to the Past" have little to do with "Unraveling" the story actually featured in this issue. I believe we should see Ian's original plans for this span of issues and then choose to A. remake this issues as Ian intended (say Hershey showed up and Naugus didn't end up in Geoffrey's body - we do that) B. we choose to leave these issues alone and reference them as they were printed (Hershey doesn't show up and Naugus is in Geoffrey's body - we reference that) or C. we remake these issues to accomodate some of Ian's original plans while keeping our own goals (say Hershey showed up and Naugus didn't end up in Geoffrey's body - we do everything with Hershey but have Geoffrey still possessed by Naugus since we figure fans from the comics would like to see that plot from before the reboot concluded). Again, unlike the next stories, this involves heavy conjecture due to the original solicits not matching the final stories for these issues and LHT may render these suggestions null and void, but I still wanted to point it out.

STH 242, SU 45: Game adaptations of the Olympic Games and All-Stars Racing Transformed.
Do not acknowledge these stories, we should stick to canon material. Only thing I would decide is if we wanted our numbering to reference where these stories were originally published or if we renumber issues should we end up starting before they took place and we end up skipping over them (if we do redo "Loyalty", "Heroes", and "Unraveling", do we make the first part of "Endangered Species" issues 242 or 243? Same for Universe).

SU 46-49: Chaotix Quest
The first two issues have clearly been altered to replace Rob O' the Hedge and Mari-An with Bow Sparrow and Thorn the Lop. Further changes to the first half, and any changes to the second half, are unknown until LHT comes out. I would like to at least redo the first two issues and redraw the last two for online publication.

STH 243-246: Endangered Species
For obvious reasons, this is probably the story most people want rewritten the most. Obvious changes were made to the story that we expect to have noted in LHT. Depending on what changes we get, I'd like to see 243 redrawn for online publication and 244-246 changed to match Ian's original intention.

SU 50: Forged in Fire/SU Finale
Not sure about this issue. I love it and think it'd be great to have it redrawn for online inclusion. But if we're sticking with original intention, the story was a replacement when Sega forbade Archie from publishing the Sonic Underground finale originally proposed for this issue. Since the Underground finale will be covered in LHT, there's a lot of reasons to make it issue 50 as originally intended. Another idea however could be to reproduce Forged in Fire and save the Sonic Underground finale, which is going to be a one off special issue no matter what, for when we get around to a 75th issue of Universe. If we don't produce a Universe book, the story can be told at any time in STH. I'm all right with all of those scenarios.

STH 247: At All Costs Part One
Another story that may have been heavily altered due to the crossover and other rewritten plans. Even if it somehow came out as intended, I'd like to see it redrawn for online publication.

STH 248-251, SU 51-54: When Worlds Collide
Whether the crossover was originally intended is probably the first thing that should be learned about these stories. If Ian had plans already in place that were interrupted by the crossover, I believe we should go ahead with those plans for these corresponding issues. If not, I think we should skip the crossover and begin the new stories starting with STH 252 and SU 55. The only new material I wouldn't mind us making for When Worlds Collide would be Ian's original ending for Part 12 that doesn't involve Eggman botching Sonic's Chaos Control. Drawing the finale as intended, without redrawing the entire issue, would be what I like to see.

And now I'd love to discuss any of the above ideas, since they're only my thoughts and I'm sure people have others.
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - The Last Few Arcs

Postby The KKM » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:06 am

Suggestion, if you're looking to do some testing the waters- choose an important main cast, say, Freedom Fighters + Eggman. Grab the Encyclopedia, read each characters' profiles, see if you can find any interesting bit or bob that feels it could be expanded into a neat short 7 page story. You're trying to get an infrastructure set up, so no point in trying to move on with the story already- presumably, that'll be important stuff you'll want to already be organized for. Instead, try to use short, inconsequential, character moments to expand as tests. I dunno, something like "when did Tails first eat a chili dog" or whatever.
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - The Last Few Arcs

Postby FritzyBeat » Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:05 pm

The KKM wrote:Suggestion, if you're looking to do some testing the waters- choose an important main cast, say, Freedom Fighters + Eggman. Grab the Encyclopedia, read each characters' profiles, see if you can find any interesting bit or bob that feels it could be expanded into a neat short 7 page story. You're trying to get an infrastructure set up, so no point in trying to move on with the story already- presumably, that'll be important stuff you'll want to already be organized for. Instead, try to use short, inconsequential, character moments to expand as tests. I dunno, something like "when did Tails first eat a chili dog" or whatever.

Sonic would have fed it to him. Tails would have gotten sick, and then Sonic would be laughing uncontrollably while Sally proceeds to scold him *shot*

But in all seriousness, KKM is right c:
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - Plots and Planning

Postby Vampfox » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:39 am

Maybe we should ask Flynn for help? If I tried to do project like this I would try to get "blessing" from original writer. He could inform us about every group that calls him.

I think it's best if we completely leave Ian and all of the current Archie Sonic writers and artist out of this in the slim chance that any legal problems pop up.

Better safe then sorry.
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - The Last Few Arcs

Postby The KKM » Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:39 am

Ian specifically mentioned fans can do whatever they like, but he can't directly say "yeah feel free to do an online continuation" so it won't be misconstructed as an endorsement. So yeah, his relation to this should just be writing the LHT.
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Re: New Archie Sonic: Online Discussion - The Last Few Arcs

Postby TuxKnux » Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:39 pm

GentlemanX wrote:STH 237-241, SU 41-44: The Secret Freedom Fighters Arc
This is the first arc I would consider re-doing, and it's largely because of LHT. There's been a strong indication that STH 237/238: "Loyalty" was rewritten to remove Hershey from the story. If this is the case and Ian considered adding her to The Secret Freedom Fighters, it may significantly alter some or all of these stories. I personally also found the version of "Loyalty" that hit print lacking, and it would be the first story I would want to rewrite on a basis for quality reasons. In addition, 241 also likely saw edits, as the original story and solicit for "Blast to the Past" have little to do with "Unraveling" the story actually featured in this issue. I believe we should see Ian's original plans for this span of issues and then choose to A. remake this issues as Ian intended (say Hershey showed up and Naugus didn't end up in Geoffrey's body - we do that) B. we choose to leave these issues alone and reference them as they were printed (Hershey doesn't show up and Naugus is in Geoffrey's body - we reference that) or C. we remake these issues to accomodate some of Ian's original plans while keeping our own goals (say Hershey showed up and Naugus didn't end up in Geoffrey's body - we do everything with Hershey but have Geoffrey still possessed by Naugus since we figure fans from the comics would like to see that plot from before the reboot concluded). Again, unlike the next stories, this involves heavy conjecture due to the original solicits not matching the final stories for these issues and LHT may render these suggestions null and void, but I still wanted to point it out.


I'm pretty sure that Hershey's "death" was planned, if only because Geoffrey was also a Ken Penders creation, if memory serves me correctly (why would Hershey but not Geoffrey be removed from the comic?). I personally think we should leave these issues alone as it isn't blatantly obvious there was any editorial meddling - personally, I liked where the story was going - it definitely gave Geoffrey some character depth and explained what he was doing all throughout the series up to that point.

Actually, adding Hershey back into the story would effectively remove Geoffrey's motivation for getting Naugus to the throne to begin with.

For SU 46-49, I agree that Bow Sparrow and Thorn were last-minute substitutes, but I think they actually have a small fan following, and I wouldn't like to remove them just to avoid some outrage. I agree that the first two parts of the story were lacking, and the last two showed some traces of executive meddling, but the last two issues of the arc (which are pretty solid as they are) should be left alone. And there's great story potential Rob's family on Little Planet.

Well, of course Endangered Species! This arc was a mess, and Flynn could not fix it. If we were to fix any arc, it should be this one. The Shadow Imperator has a script for the first issue if you check the last page of the ES remake thread.

I'm going to meld my ideas on the rest of the issues together, but let me ask this: do we really want to remake all of these issues? I feel like remaking too many of them could cause the fan comic to be caught up in make-up issues so much that enthusiasm for the project wanes before the actual LHT part of the story starts. And seeing as there are people who love most of the issues regardless of the copyright problems (I like #247, SU 48-49, SU 41-44, GentlemanX likes SU50, and so on), it seems to me like the best option is to only remake Endangered Species (because it was almost universally panned) and just continue on. Although, following LHT verbatim would then be almost impossible due to the shenanigans Flynn was pulling to keep producing material in spite of his restrictions.

My grand idea is:
Made Worlds Collide canon, then restore the old universe from the new one. Make the universes mutually inaccessible with the oh-so-convenient power of the Chaos Emeralds, and then the current comic is "canon" and the Genesis Portals and any other weird stuff can be explained away with "it's magic". The restoration of the old universe might also change some of the past, allowing us to have a reason to do some of the older arcs and not dismiss the comic after issue 241 or so. I have a story idea for this, but it's pretty out there.

tldr - Remake as few arcs as possible. New content would be more interesting then rehashing old stuff.
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