Thoughts on the "New" Mobius

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Re: Thoughts on the "New" Mobius

Postby apprentice manta » Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:35 pm

Xeric wrote:She should've just been reintroduced as one of the Freedom Fighters again in Countdown to Chaos or something. I never understood why she was never a member of the Freedom Fighters in the book like she was in SatAM.

Also I like how you're all "Dulcy shouldn't come back!" when she hasn't been given a chance in the book yet; Ian's done wonders with 'hated' characters in the past so hopefully he'll done wonders with her. Didn't he say on the Charity Livestream that he's found something for her now?

SatAM did a horrible job of introducing Dulcy. She was literally just there in Season 2, & everybody acted as though she'd been a part of the time all along, w/ no in-universe explanation for why she didn't accompany them on S1 missions where her flying could have provided a useful escape. Even just a throw-away line about how she'd been training to be a better flier & was excited to finally have a chance to work w/ everyone on field missions would've been appreciated but the show never got an reason. It's pretty obvious that Dulcy was a last-minute idea to have a new chara in S2.

New charas aren't automatically terrible, but they do suffer if the writers treat them as somehow who was always there but never mentioned before. Shining Armor from MLP: FiM. Nice design, cool use of magic, starred in some interesting episodes, & added another male to a roster that is almost overwhelming female. He's a great chara BUT you'd really think that somewhere in all those 'friendship letters' & discussions of family, holidays, or trips to Canterlot, Twilight Sparkle might've seen fit to mention her brother at least once. Contrast that to the newest TMNT 2012 villain who made cameos all through S1 in a much more benevolent form, before getting mutated by ooze. That sense of familiarity made his actions even more chilling to the audience, even though everything made sense from a story-telling standpoint.

Whether Dulcy comes back should depend on whether or not she can be given a redesign that blends in better (ie, she can still be used to carry one or two friends short distances but she shouldn't be so much bigger than everyone that she has trouble fitting into a panel.) She should also be given a better personality because scatter-brained klutz can provide physical comedy in a cartoon, but doesn't translate well in Archie Sonic where, in general, everyone's competence level is higher than it was in SatAM. I would also consider whether Dulcy could be useful to any plot & whether enough time could be spent developing her personality & skills to make her an interesting chara.

The comic had a large amount of FF's & has struggled in the past to devote enough attention to background or support charas. Ian's done a good job of re-introducing & improving old charas but many of those charas had been so neglected because it was difficult for writers to know what to do w/ them. Some of them, like Tommy Turtle, could only hope to die heroically because they had overstayed their welcome & otherwise had no real purpose to the plot.
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Re: Thoughts on the "New" Mobius

Postby lalalei2001 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:00 pm

I think Dulcy was added because Ben Hurts was told to add another girl. She was his favorite character alongside Sally, so that's why they got so much focus in Season 2.
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Re: Thoughts on the "New" Mobius

Postby apprentice manta » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:27 pm

You can have new charas, & you can increase the focus on the newbies, but it really helps if you spend some time establishing who the new girl is. Batman: the Animated Series added Harley Quinn. They gave her an origin story & several spotlight episodes. They worked hard to make her a fun addition to the Rogues' Gallery & they succeeded. She's the rare example of a canon immigrant- a new chara introduced in one continuity that becomes so popular they are included in other official branches of the franchise (comics, video games, etc.)

Dulcy wasn't terrible, but she needed a better in-universe reason for joining the team. Her chara's time is spent mostly joking around w/ Antoine, crashing into trees, & making the occasional remark about missing her mother. You could get some depth from any of those things, but it just didn't happen on the show or in the comics.

Mina dealt w/ similar issues: her mother was gone, she wanted to fit in w/ the FF's but her skills weren't strong enough to help the team. However the comic managed to develop Mina. She spends some time worrying about her mother's fate & is given closure when Isabella reunites w/ her. She spends time training w/ the FF's. It doesn't have the results she wants, but it leads her to realize that she is better suited as either a baby-sitter (working w/ the orphans helps lessen her own grief about lost parents) or a singer. She ends up not getting her first crush to date her & have mutant hedge-mongoose babies but she finds another guy who loves her & wants her to be happy & she makes new friends (the bandmembers.) She even gets an subplot about trust issues after Nicole is co-opted by the Iron Queen, which leads to several other plots as well as chara development & eventual friendship for both Mina & Nicole. Mina was introduced for virtually the same reasons as Dulcy (new girl on the team) but was handled better overall.
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Re: Thoughts on the "New" Mobius

Postby streetsonic13 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:25 pm

misspuar wrote:You can have new charas, & you can increase the focus on the newbies, but it really helps if you spend some time establishing who the new girl is. Batman: the Animated Series added Harley Quinn. They gave her an origin story & several spotlight episodes. They worked hard to make her a fun addition to the Rogues' Gallery & they succeeded. She's the rare example of a canon immigrant- a new chara introduced in one continuity that becomes so popular they are included in other official branches of the franchise (comics, video games, etc.)

Dulcy wasn't terrible, but she needed a better in-universe reason for joining the team. Her chara's time is spent mostly joking around w/ Antoine, crashing into trees, & making the occasional remark about missing her mother. You could get some depth from any of those things, but it just didn't happen on the show or in the comics.

Mina dealt w/ similar issues: her mother was gone, she wanted to fit in w/ the FF's but her skills weren't strong enough to help the team. However the comic managed to develop Mina. She spends some time worrying about her mother's fate & is given closure when Isabella reunites w/ her. She spends time training w/ the FF's. It doesn't have the results she wants, but it leads her to realize that she is better suited as either a baby-sitter (working w/ the orphans helps lessen her own grief about lost parents) or a singer. She ends up not getting her first crush to date her & have mutant hedge-mongoose babies but she finds another guy who loves her & wants her to be happy & she makes new friends (the bandmembers.) She even gets an subplot about trust issues after Nicole is co-opted by the Iron Queen, which leads to several other plots as well as chara development & eventual friendship for both Mina & Nicole. Mina was introduced for virtually the same reasons as Dulcy (new girl on the team) but was handled better overall.



Another example of this is X-23. Introduced in X-Men Evolution series, as a one-shot character: clone of Wolverine who became extremely popular on her debut, then appear in another episode of the series. Later, Marvel made her as a canon immigrant to the comic books which increase her popularity ten folds. Since then, like Harley Quinn for Batman/DC comics, she appeared in other media.
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Re: Thoughts on the "New" Mobius

Postby Damo » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:03 pm

[quote="Penguin God":****] He's also known for knowing that [url=http://archiesonic.wikia.com/wiki/Tommy_Turtle:****]some[/url:****] characters are better off just gone. Sometimes characters just aren't good no matter how you twist them. [/quote:****]

True enough.

But like I said, one of my favorite things of Ian's tenure has been seeing him take the characters that just weren't very good and overhauling them into something fun. It's sort of like watching one of those shows where an expert comes in to fix a shoddy product/business.

I'll let other people make the obvious jokes that analogy can provide.

But this is relevant to the thread topic, because one of my thoughts about this Brave New (Sonic's) World is that we've gone from having a surplus of fixer-upper characters to a shortage. There's some SatAM characters, and some game characters, but in the case of the game ones SEGA would probably have Opinions about how the characters should properly be written, limiting what Ian could do.

As for Tommy though, it's worth noting that he was a perfect storm of Don't Bother Fixing.

He was fairly new when Ian came on board, so there was no nostalgia factor (unlike the SatAM chars), and not a whole lot of respect for his creator, whose other work had tended not to be well received.

In terms of what he brought to the book, he basically just stepped on everyone's toes. He was a childhood friend of Sonic (we already had a few of those...) who was good at Science (we already had so many of those we couldn't find jobs for them all) and then he basically got cybernetic upgrades including built-in rockets (aka Bunnie's entire schtick). A little overlap in what characters bring to the book is going to be inevitable over time, but Tommy was just ridiculously redundant.
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Re: Thoughts on the "New" Mobius

Postby Astrobot7000 » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:15 pm

I am sure this has been asked before, but I cannot look through 86 pages to find an answer. I did a few forum searches but didn't see it discussed at length.

So we all know that many of the old characters are gone for the foreseeable future (and likely gone for good). So do you think they were objectively erased from reality, or do you think that they are still out there somewhere in a different capacity? For sure, we will never see them again, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to think that so many people were just erased from existence. I like to think that it is similar Sonic and Lien-Da from Mobius X-Years Later. They were not erased from the timeline per se, but restructured in some new form somewhere (Sonic being re-structured is confirmed on panel and Ian confirmed that Lien-Da was not simply erased through a post on this forum a long time ago). I would like to think that Super Sonic's reshaped reality has everyone in it in some fashion but different. For example, Elias might not be a prince any more but maybe he is a farmer somewhere in some rural part of Mobius, etc.

What do you guys think? Do you think Ian will provide some sort of confirmation for us on the forum? Clearly the characters will no longer be shown or mentioned by name in the comic, but that doesn't mean they were entirely erased from reality.
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Re: Thoughts on the "New" Mobius

Postby Meliden » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:39 pm

M:30YL is probably erased from existence. Wouldn't be surprised if the Echidnas were too, or at least had died prior to the current events. The rest, dunno.
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Re: Thoughts on the "New" Mobius

Postby RadRed89 » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:06 pm

I don't want to speak for Ian, but I get the feeling based on what's been said already that confirmation of or even hinting that characters we aren't seeing exist at all in the new continuity crosses the line. Even if it's just saying they're out there off-screen somewhere, doing absolutely nothing at all.

Until they actually do appear though, I know I'm just going to assume they're gone, as in, they no longer exist.
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Re: Thoughts on the "New" Mobius

Postby Sunwalker » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:13 pm

In "Worlds Collide" (in the 1st part, if I am not mistaken) it was said that the Genesis Wave cannot erase beings from the existence.

So one can assume that the removed characters exist somewhere, probably in another dimension where they cannot affect the Prime Zone.

[irony]Maybe they went to Lara-Su Chronicles dimension? :P[/irony]
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Re: Thoughts on the "New" Mobius

Postby Sparky » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:20 pm

Sunwalker wrote:In "Worlds Collide" (in the 1st part, if I am not mistaken) it was said that the Genesis Wave cannot erase beings from the existence.

So one can assume that the removed characters exist somewhere, probably in another dimension where they cannot affect the Prime Zone.

[irony]Maybe they went to Lara-Su Chronicles dimension? :P[/irony]

WHY IS EVERYONE CONSTANTLY FORGETTING THAT THE SUPER GENESIS WAVE WAS FIRED AND HAS NO SUCH LIMITS!!!!
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Re: Thoughts on the "New" Mobius

Postby Meliden » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:30 pm

While I don't think there was a need for all caps, it is true that the whole thing with the second wave does not obey whatever rules the first wave followed.
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Re: Thoughts on the "New" Mobius

Postby Sunwalker » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:15 pm

Thanks to The Pendering™, we most likely won't never get any real closure for the characters. So any guess is as good as each other, but I think it would be too bleak to say that they were completely erased from existence. It is better to just assume that they are somewhere else completely unrelated to the Prime Zone.

But it is a comic what we are talking about, no need to flip out over it.
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Re: Thoughts on the "New" Mobius

Postby LBD_Nytetrayn » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:40 pm

I can empathize with Sparky, as people keep bringing it up (not here, necessarily) like it's some sort of error when it was by design and clearly explained.

That said: Sparky, chill. ;P

--LBD "Nytetrayn"
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Re: Thoughts on the "New" Mobius

Postby akessel92 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:15 pm

I wonder what lies ahead for this world? I think since this altered reality has an altered timeline I could say instead of surviving the crash Sally's brother and her mom died in the crash. As for the echidnas, the only part their history that wasn't altered was the knuckles' tribe (I.e. Tikal, and them).
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Re: Thoughts on the "New" Mobius

Postby DabigRG » Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:40 pm

akessel92 wrote: As for the echidnas, the only part their history that wasn't altered was the knuckles' tribe (I.e. Tikal, and them).

Or maybe they
Spoiler: show
were the city of Albion that eventually had half of its population become the Nocturnus while the others followed New!Edmund's philosophy and eventually got wiped out by Chaos. The emmigrants who left to see the world, on the otherhand, eventually returned to find their departed gone and were subsequently picked off by another threat, with the then unhatched PoKnuckles being left behind as Guardian.
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