Rotor in Mobius: X Years Later: Something that's bugged me

[SynjoDeonecros]

After reading some of the responses Ian has given about his stance on Rotor and Cobar, I'm confused about his treatment of them during the first part of his version of Mobius: X Years Later. I know he thought their relationship was irrelevant, and I know he said he was largely ambivalent when it came to Rotor, but compared to ROtor's treatment nowadays, the scene of Rotor in Shadow's dungeon and the implications of Cobar's death at the time seem much harsher. Why is that? Did he really hate the relationship that much, at the time? Did he just not like the character of Cobar? Or was there some behind the scenes meddling going on?

[Ian Flynn]

The thinking behind M25YL's epilogue was to simplify and tell the story in a very limited space. I was also under orders to introduce an evil King Shadow, so it was something of a tricky project. The quickest way to show someone as evil is to have them do bad things to good characters; the more important the good guy the more evil King Shadow would seem (e.g. a Freedom Fights vs. third-string supporting character).

Another aspect was that Rotor and Cobar were the most closely linked to the time flip-flop. They were the researchers, they were the ones confronted by Lien-Da, and Rotor was a Freedom Fighter. I had to include him in the story somehow because he was that important; it only made sense. And so King Shadow, brutal tyrant that he was, beat the secrets of the time-change out of him. He also killed Cobar who, at the time, I thought was useless to the story at the time. Cobar was essentially an echidna-Rotor during M25YL, bringing nothing new to the mix. I thought that killing him off gave him purpose: underlining that King Shadow was ruthless and evil now.

Had I known he and Rotor were meant to be a couple, I would've approached it a different way. Unfortunately there was no indication by Mr. Penders that was his intent (except maybe one line of dialogue, but that's debatable). Going into the project, my understanding of Rotor and Cobar's "relationship" was that they were co-workers. It wasn't until Mr. Penders revealed his intentions that anybody at Archie knew they were meant to be a couple.

[SynjoDeonecros]

The thinking behind M25YL's epilogue was to simplify and tell the story in a very limited space. I was also under orders to introduce an evil King Shadow, so it was something of a tricky project. The quickest way to show someone as evil is to have them do bad things to good characters; the more important the good guy the more evil King Shadow would seem (e.g. a Freedom Fights vs. third-string supporting character).

Another aspect was that Rotor and Cobar were the most closely linked to the time flip-flop. They were the researchers, they were the ones confronted by Lien-Da, and Rotor was a Freedom Fighter. I had to include him in the story somehow because he was that important; it only made sense. And so King Shadow, brutal tyrant that he was, beat the secrets of the time-change out of him. He also killed Cobar who, at the time, I thought was useless to the story at the time. Cobar was essentially an echidna-Rotor during M25YL, bringing nothing new to the mix. I thought that killing him off gave him purpose: underlining that King Shadow was ruthless and evil now.

Had I known he and Rotor were meant to be a couple, I would've approached it a different way. Unfortunately there was no indication by Mr. Penders that was his intent (except maybe one line of dialogue, but that's debatable). Going into the project, my understanding of Rotor and Cobar's "relationship" was that they were co-workers. It wasn't until Mr. Penders revealed his intentions that anybody at Archie knew they were meant to be a couple.

That's kinda what I figured, and while I can see that, I don't say I agree. The problem I have is that, immediately afterward, you had Shadow say that he's doing all of this "for the good of Mobius" and act like he was trying to be a (to quote TV Tropes) Well-Intentioned Extremist at best and Knight Templar at worst. Typically,w ith those kinds of characters, they try to temper their evil actions with justifications that they're doing right, or twist them into looking like it's for the best; having him joking about Cobar's death doesn't seem like the kind of behavior someone with that mentality would go for. Plus, considering he was LIen-Da's chief scientist at the time, it would make a bit more sense to like brainwash him into working with them or something.

As for you not knowing, I can see that; Ken did release info about it during your run on the story, and even I had to look extensively through the first part of the story to get all of the innuendos (there's currently three that I've caught in the story itself, and one in the main story that Ken claims was meant to hint at it, also), so it makes sense that you'd have missed it. Now my questions are: how would you have approached it differently, had you known, and now that you know about it, if you had a chance to do so, would you reintroduce Cobar into the story and how?

[SonicBlueRanger]

Wasn't Rotor being Gay said after the second Mobius 25 Years Later came out?

[Ian Flynn]

As for you not knowing, I can see that; Ken did release info about it during your run on the story, and even I had to look extensively through the first part of the story to get all of the innuendos (there's currently three that I've caught in the story itself, and one in the main story that Ken claims was meant to hint at it, also), so it makes sense that you'd have missed it. Now my questions are: how would you have approached it differently, had you known, and now that you know about it, if you had a chance to do so, would you reintroduce Cobar into the story and how?

It's hard to say since it was a while ago. It's real easy to say "Well, if I'd known, I would've done this-and-such-and-whatever" without taking into account all the factors that were playing into it at the time. Really, my focus was doing evil King Shadow and making Lara-Su a kick-butt Guardian.

If I had known, I probably would've had them both survive and in the dungeon. Give them a moment where they find strength in each other to weather King Shadow's brutality. But I'm standing by my policy of "dead = dead." The only way I'd back-pedal on that was if 1) it was a major character and 2) it took a major story event to bring them back. If someone's coming back from the dead on my run, they're going to have to work for it.

So, no, Cobar's not coming back. Knowing what his original purpose was makes his death a little sadder, and that makes it mean all the more.

Wasn't Rotor being Gay said after the second Mobius 25 Years Later came out?

Yeah, and because of that, it can't be canon. Had Mr. Penders established it in-book during his tenure, it'd be viable. But because he revealed it after his time, without any real substance in the book to back it up, it's essentially a "fan idea."

[SynjoDeonecros]

Wasn't Rotor being Gay said after the second Mobius 25 Years Later came out?

Yeah, it was, or at the very least, after the part where Rotor was tortured came out. I know Ken had hinted at the possibility before then on his message board, but he didn't actively come out to confirm it until after then.

Interestingly enough, he said that, at the time, he didn't peg Rotor with Tommy, because Tommy was, in his own words, "dead"... which isn't true, since the time the story was written, they were already bringing him back and putting him in the Brain Trust. That actually got me thinking; what would their relationship had been like? And how would it have impacted Rotor's future relationships with people, romantic or otherwise? It would be really interesting to see how his past with Tommy, as apprentice/teacher and/or more (if you want to go that route) affected him after Tommy's death.

And Ian, I know your policy of "dead is dead", but that was future Cobar; you could still introduce a present-day Cobar. Check my thread on the BumbleKreative Corner, I've got some ideas on how you can introduce the character into the series and still have it make sense in the standing of things.

[Ian Flynn]

Wasn't Rotor being Gay said after the second Mobius 25 Years Later came out?

Yeah, it was, or at the very least, after the part where Rotor was tortured came out. I know Ken had hinted at the possibility before then on his message board, but he didn't actively come out to confirm it until after then.

Interestingly enough, he said that, at the time, he didn't peg Rotor with Tommy, because Tommy was, in his own words, "dead"... which isn't true, since the time the story was written, they were already bringing him back and putting him in the Brain Trust. That actually got me thinking; what would their relationship had been like? And how would it have impacted Rotor's future relationships with people, romantic or otherwise? It would be really interesting to see how his past with Tommy, as apprentice/teacher and/or more (if you want to go that route) affected him after Tommy's death.

And Ian, I know your policy of "dead is dead", but that was future Cobar; you could still introduce a present-day Cobar. Check my thread on the BumbleKreative Corner, I've got some ideas on how you can introduce the character into the series and still have it make sense in the standing of things.

Ugh - if Rotor were gay, he'd deserve far better than Tommy.

As for present-Cobar, I'm having a very hard time telling the stories I want to about Knuckles and Julie-Su, let alone any other echidna. There wouldn't be a point, either, since I can't hook him up with Rotor at this point. My hands are tied.

Also, I don't go to the Kreative Korner - I can't take fan ideas.

[SynjoDeonecros]

Wasn't Rotor being Gay said after the second Mobius 25 Years Later came out?

Yeah, it was, or at the very least, after the part where Rotor was tortured came out. I know Ken had hinted at the possibility before then on his message board, but he didn't actively come out to confirm it until after then.

Interestingly enough, he said that, at the time, he didn't peg Rotor with Tommy, because Tommy was, in his own words, "dead"... which isn't true, since the time the story was written, they were already bringing him back and putting him in the Brain Trust. That actually got me thinking; what would their relationship had been like? And how would it have impacted Rotor's future relationships with people, romantic or otherwise? It would be really interesting to see how his past with Tommy, as apprentice/teacher and/or more (if you want to go that route) affected him after Tommy's death.

And Ian, I know your policy of "dead is dead", but that was future Cobar; you could still introduce a present-day Cobar. Check my thread on the BumbleKreative Corner, I've got some ideas on how you can introduce the character into the series and still have it make sense in the standing of things.

Ugh - if Rotor were gay, he'd deserve far better than Tommy.

As for present-Cobar, I'm having a very hard time telling the stories I want to about Knuckles and Julie-Su, let alone any other echidna. There wouldn't be a point, either, since I can't hook him up with Rotor at this point. My hands are tied.

Also, I don't go to the Kreative Korner - I can't take fan ideas.

Oh? Editorial mandate against Rotor having any sort of relationship? Or just him being gay in general? If it's the latter, it seems weird that you'd be prevented from doing so considering Archie has an openly gay character of their own in their comics.

[Ian Flynn]

I just answered that in this thread, amigo.

[SynjoDeonecros]

I suppose so, sorry. You said your hands were tied, I was just wondering if it was just the gay relationships you couldn't do or any relationships with him, period.

Anyway, thanks for clearing things up over this. That was one of the biggest thorns in my psyche I had with your writing, and it's good to finally get it straightened out.

[Toby Barrett]

--I'm having a very hard time telling the stories I want to about Knuckles and Julie-Su, let alone any other echidna--

[SynjoDeonecros]

Oh, I see. I thought it was just some mandate against the relationship, and you were just not good at writing Echidna stories, but it's a mandate against Echidna stories, as a whole? That makes things a bit more complicated, but explains why we haven't seen Albion, any more. My bad, thanks for pointing that out.

[The Shadow Emperor]

Oh, I see. I thought it was just some mandate against the relationship, and you were just not good at writing Echidna stories, but it's a mandate against Echidna stories, as a whole? That makes things a bit more complicated, but explains why we haven't seen Albion, any more. My bad, thanks for pointing that out.

No, Ian has no qualms with telling echidna stories, in fact he's said numerous times that he really, really wants to. The problem is there is already such a massive amount of ongoing sub-plots in the book nowadays (Silver, Blaze, the BBA, the Rogues, Scourge, the D.E.L., Shadow and G.U.N. to name a few), and echidna stuff is on the back-burner for now.

[SynjoDeonecros]

Oh, I see. I thought it was just some mandate against the relationship, and you were just not good at writing Echidna stories, but it's a mandate against Echidna stories, as a whole? That makes things a bit more complicated, but explains why we haven't seen Albion, any more. My bad, thanks for pointing that out.

No, Ian has no qualms with telling echidna stories, in fact he's said numerous times that he really, really wants to. The problem is there is already such a massive amount of ongoing sub-plots in the book nowadays (Silver, Blaze, the BBA, the Rogues, Scourge, the D.E.L., Shadow and G.U.N. to name a few), and echidna stuff is on the back-burner for now.

...Which brings up a good point, in my opinion; Ian seems to be the sole writer for all of these stories, and while I know multiple writers have muddied up the waters for the comic before, it seems interesting that he hasn't asked Archie for help with writing or - if he has - that he was denied. I know of only a very few stories during Ian's run that weren't written by him, so excuse me if I'm getting this wrong, again.

[Toby Barrett]

With very limited pages a month to tell a story, Albion isn't really a very important thing to focus on at the moment.